How ADHD Can Be Missed in Quiet Women

Some women spend years wondering why everyday life feels more difficult than it seems to for other people. They may appear calm, capable and organised on the outside, yet privately struggle with overwhelm, overthinking, self-criticism and exhaustion.

In this episode, Dr Lee David is joined by Gabrielle Treanor, ADHD coach, author and founder of the Quiet ADHD Club, to explore how ADHD can be missed in quiet, introverted and sensitive women.

Diagnosed herself at 48, Gabrielle reflects on why many women do not recognise themselves in common ADHD stereotypes. The discussion explores how ADHD may be hidden behind competence, people-pleasing, perfectionism and a lifelong effort to appear as though everything is under control.

The conversation looks at masking, rejection sensitivity, burnout, hyperfocus and the impact of living for years without understanding why certain aspects of life feel harder than they seem to for others. It also explores the relationship between ADHD, menopause and the inner critic, and how understanding what is happening can bring relief, self-compassion and a different way of viewing ourselves.

Practical strategies are woven throughout the discussion, including creating space for joy and creativity, recognising rejection sensitivity, using movement to support regulation, managing time blindness and building compassionate approaches that reduce pressure rather than adding to it.

This is a thoughtful conversation about self-understanding, compassion and recognising ADHD beyond the stereotypes.

Key moments

00:00 Finding the quiet ADHD story
01:58 Gabrielle's late ADHD diagnosis
05:30 How ADHD can look different in women
08:56 The hidden inner experience of ADHD
12:25 Perfectionism, masking and the inner critic
14:05 Burnout and unmet potential
18:46 Why joy matters for the ADHD brain
23:07 Rejection sensitivity and relationships
29:40 Self-compassion and regulation
35:04 Time blindness and overcommitting
37:55 Hyperfocus and healthy boundaries
40:59 Movement as a regulation tool

About the guest

Gabrielle Treanor is a coach, writer, author and podcaster based in Wales, specialising in supporting introverted and sensitive women who discover – or suspect – they have ADHD later in life. Diagnosed herself at 48, Gabrielle hosts the Quiet ADHD Club, works one to one with coaching clients, and has an MSc in Applied Positive Psychology. She is the author of The 1% Wellness Experiment and host of the Pressing Pause podcast. She is also creating the Better Read Book Fest – the UK’s first literary festival dedicated entirely to wellbeing books.

You can connect with Gabrielle via her website, Instagram and LinkedIn

About the host

Dr Lee David is a GP, CBT therapist and author specialising in mental health and wellbeing. Lee has written many books on CBT, mindfulness and teen wellbeing, and speaks regularly at conferences and in the media. Away from work she enjoys running, hiking, singing in a choir and spending time outdoors with her family. You can find Lee through her website and on Instagram, TikTok (@dr.lee.david), Facebook and LinkedIn.  You can find more about her books, wellbeing courses and therapy here:  https://linktr.ee/dr.lee.david 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What I had been doing in my work was actually speaking to an awful lot of the features of unrecognized ADHD in introverted, sensitive middle-aged women. And one of the things that really stuck out for me was that I wasn't seeing women like me. I wasn't entirely recognizing myself in the women I was seeing. They were very flamboyant, they were extroverts. And I was thinking, where are the quiet women? Where are the more contained, the introverted, the women that are like me? I realized that there must be women like me out there who perhaps were also floundering, not knowing about their ADHD, or had just found out about their ADHD, but weren't seeing themselves reflected in that sort of stereotypical presentation. And I thought, those are the women I want to speak with, those are women I want to find and connect with, and we can support each other in our quieter, more introverted ways.

Dr Lee David 1:02

Some people appear organized and able to cope well on the outside, yet privately find everyday life much harder than other people realise. For some, ADHD may be part of the picture. But this does not always show up in the way that people may expect. It can often be harder to recognize in quieter, more introverted or sensitive people, especially those who are good at masking and pushing through. Today we're exploring how ADHD can affect people differently, the impact of living with unrecognised ADHD, and what can change when people begin to better understand themselves and start to access support. I'm joined today by Gabrielle Trainer, ADHD coach and writer specialising in introverted and sensitive women. Gabrielle, welcome. Could you start by telling us a little about your work and what first drew you to this area?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Well, thank you so much for having me on, Lee. I really appreciate you having me here and I'm looking forward to this conversation. Yeah, so I am an ADHD coach and writer and author, and I work with women who are more introverted and sensitive and often have discovered their AHD later in life, perhaps in sort of midlife 40s, 50s, 60s. It was an interesting little path that I took to get here because I have been supporting women as a coach for several years. And what I have been supporting them with was people pleasing and perfectionism, overthinking, overdoing, overwhelm, all of those things. And then a couple of years ago, I discovered myself that I have ADHD. And not only did everything fall into place for me personally, but I realized that what I'd been doing in my work all this time was actually speaking to an awful lot of the features of unrecognized ADHD in introverted, sensitive middle-aged women. And one of the things that really stuck out for me was that I wasn't seeing women like me. I was learning from so many incredible, generous women who were really sharing their only experience of what it is like to have ADHD as a 50-year-old woman. But I still wasn't entirely recognizing myself in the women I was seeing. They were very flamboyant, they were extrovert. And I was thinking, where are the quiet women? Where are the more sort of contained, the introverted, the women that are like me? And so when I got my diagnosis and really started to think about how I had been supporting women, I realized that there must be women like me out there who perhaps were also floundering, not knowing about their ADHD, or had just found out about their ADHD, but weren't seeing themselves reflected in that sort of stereotypical presentation as well. And I thought those are the women I want to speak with, those are women I want to find and connect with, and we can support each other and we can gather in the way that feels right for us in our quieter, more introverted ways.

Dr Lee David 3:49

I think that's really amazing and so important for people to feel represented in discussions about neurodivergence. It's really important that people are able to see this represents me, this is my lived experience, this is how I see the world, and this does make sense for me. There's a barrier, isn't there, to being able to talk about it, both through perhaps there being less awareness about how ADHD might present in people who are quieter. And also being introverted, there's a barrier about being able to start to have these conversations more openly as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

A lot of introverted women are quietly taking in information. They are listening, they are reading, they are watching, but they're not necessarily getting involved in the conversations because that feels like a step that they aren't ready for, or it just feels too busy or noisy, because also there's this feeling of, but that's not really me. That can't really be the answer. It's just an excuse I'm looking for. All of this is all going on inside our heads, as opposed to joining in conversations or speaking up in groups or talking about it more openly. And so I think because of that, that can be harder to really find your people and realize that you aren't the only one like you out there. And so I have an online community called the Quiet ADHD Club. And there are lots of women there who I know have been in there for a very long time. They are taking in a lot of information, not had any contact with them, haven't said a word. And that's completely fine with me because I get you, you're an introvert, and that's fine because you know that I'm here if you ever need me. And I think it's just having the opportunity to be able to feel if you wanted to ask a question, if you wanted to speak up, that you can do that in a space that feels okay for you to do that without any pressure.

Dr Lee David 5:30

So let's go back to some of the basics about what ADHD is and just how differently it can show up in some of the women that you're working with.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

So I think in in a way, it shows up differently by making it hard for it to show up to actually see it on the outside. So I think that an awful lot of us still have that view of ADHD being the fidgety little boy in class who is considered the naughty boy. And so when we think of that, trying to marry that image with a 40, 50, 60-year-old woman who maybe has a family, has a career, has got a house, has got responsibility, you know, there's just no comparison whatsoever. And so actually, how it is really showing up for the more introverted older woman is it's very internal. It's all happening on the inside. And so there is a lot of overthinking. There's a lot of being very busy in your mind. There's a lot of analysis going on of what is happening. There's all the stimulus and the input that is coming in from the outside world, but there's also all the thinking about it. Then there's just random thoughts that are coming in all the time. There's the loud inner voice that can be going on in there that is also then criticizing you for everything that you're doing. There's a lot of striving to appear like you've got everything under control. This is where the masking comes in. You know, there's a lot of I need to look like I've got it together. People need to believe that I'm professional, that I can cope, that I am not a mess. I must not mess up. I must not look like I don't know what I'm doing. And therefore, there's a huge amount of effort going in to making it look like actually, you know, got everything under control, everything's all right at work, you know, you're not forgetting people's birthdays, you're not, you know, letting anybody down. But the amount of effort that it's taking to do that, the amount of systems that have probably been created to make that happen, but that's because you have lists and you have reminders and you've got calendar alerts and you've got all these other things going on. All of this sort of efforting and striving while trying to deal with the voice in your head that is telling you you're doing it wrong and you're about to mess up any second, and people think you're rubbish anyway, all the time, the emotional dysregulation of feeling very sensitive not just to external output, input rather, from sounds you hear and sight and lighting and smells and textures, but also from the sensitivity that we have to other people's words, a look on their face, a little bit of body language, and how we can take the tenius intonation and then suddenly we just feel like we have just done the most awful thing and they think we're a terrible person, and there's all that kind of going on as well. It's a lot happening, but we don't necessarily see it on the outside because it's much more internalized. And also over the years, the masking that we have taken on, we have learned to keep it inside, to make it look like, you know what, everything is fine. You know, we get called calm a lot, responsible, organized. Those words don't match with what we think of as ADHD, but we're coming across like that because we are trying incredibly hard to look like that. And it's that classic swan gliding on the lake when underneath the paddling that is going on is furious. On the outside, we're showing up as mostly looking fine until, you know, perimenopause and menopause hit. And then when the hormones are going all over the shop, that's when things can start to actually crack and unravel. And that's when perhaps it can be seen on the outside because those structures and those systems aren't working so well for us anymore. And that's when it begins to show, and that's when we begin to not be able to keep going in the way that we have done.

Dr Lee David 8:55

So I'm hearing there's a whole lot of layers of the inner experience and on the outside, like that swan you mentioned, people look very serene and calm, but internally there's just so much going on. And we might be able to break that down into some of the traits that might be ADHD traits. So maybe we might have some inattention. So it might be difficult to pay attention to things that are not very interesting and to retain that or to keep a focus. Maybe just quietly our brain goes on to something else that's a bit more interesting, and then we come back and go, oh, what have I just missed? And so there's that sense of not quite always being on top of it, which again may not show up externally because we've got these coping strategies. So we've got what's going on inside, which is lots of content, lots of thoughts. There's lots of ideas and positive stuff happening in there, but it can feel overwhelming, I think. It can be like a funnel that just gets a bit blocked, or like the motorway when there's just a lot of traffic on it, and eventually we kind of get a traffic jam, not because there's been a crash, but just because there's so many cars on the road that I think the thoughts can can act like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yeah, I think that's a really good description. And I think this is why historically girls have been missed at school because they haven't been outwardly a problem, you know, that's so they don't get noticed because actually they're sat there very quiet, but yeah, their mind is just drifted off somewhere else entirely. They're their thoughts have gone completely somewhere else. Then they're perhaps noticed and criticized for daydreaming. Kind of you're away with the fairies. Come on, pay attention. I think very quickly girls learn that there are lots of rules that we need to abide by, says society, to be good girls. And that if we aren't abiding by those rules, then we are bad. And that means we will get into trouble, we will get told off, we, you know, will then lose that connection. And we don't want that. That speaks to that primal part of us that needs to be part of the group to be safe. And so we very quickly learn to swash down things and to hide. And so it might be that there is an urge that a little girl has to move around, but very quickly she learns that actually she needs to sit still. And so she sits still, but actually, you know, her leg is jiggling like crazy underneath the table, or she's sitting there and she's fiddling with her with her fingers, or she's fiddling with a ring, or doing something to feed that need that can't actually be shown outwardly because she's learned very early on, you must stay still, you must not be fiting, you must not interrupt, and therefore actually can go the other way. So, but then you become even more quiet because you're so conscious of not interrupting and getting told offer it, that you then don't dare say anything and you don't want to say anything in case you say the wrong thing, or you know, you overshare or you blurt out. But all of this, you know, all of this thinking that is required to behave like that, it's it's so much to be doing and the energy that it is taking to do all that. What I hear, and what I remember from my childhood and what I hear from other mums is that little girls will come home from school and they'll have a meltdown once they get home or once they get out of the school gate, or they'll actually just be bouncing off the walls at home because they've spent the day containing and holding themselves in and trying to be the good girl and trying to pay attention while their brain is being pulled in all kinds of directions. And so then there's a big emotional outburst, or they have an awful lot of energy. So then they're bouncing around the walls, but it's it's just an expression of having been pent up at school. So it's yeah, I think this is why women get too 50 or years old without learning about their ADHD, because when they are six years old, they learn to mask and they learn to hold themselves in and they learn to be who they are expected to be.

Dr Lee David 12:25

Completely agree. And I think one of the ways that women do that is through our inner critic. So our inner critic shows up as an attempt to try and keep us in line, to try and make sure we're not socially rejected, to try and make sure we are doing the things that society or our parents or teachers or the world expects us to do and to be. And we then develop these very rigid expectations on ourselves that I always have to do this, I have to do it this way. And if I don't do it, then the critic says, I'm not good enough, I'm failing, I'm somehow not as good as others. And some of the women I've worked with with ADHD would have that experience of this is actually really hard. I want to do this, but I I'm aware that there's that actually it's very difficult to be able to do it. And I think it's harder for me than for other people, and I dare not show that because that then would make me somehow lesser than others. And so the same pressures perhaps exist, but it's just harder to meet them. So that swan is having to paddle at triple speed in order to compensate for the fact that it genuinely is harder to pay attention, it is harder to be organised. And so we have to develop these layer upon layer of coping strategies, which are often policed by our inner critic who's like, you have to do this, you must get it done properly. And it becomes this exhausting spiral, which I think I have seen a number of women who then become burnt out as a consequence. And often around the midlife period, as you say, when when menopause hits, then the wheels come off everything, all the coping strategies, it just becomes too much and the whole system falls apart for a period of time because it's just overwhelm.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah, absolutely. I think there are so many things that get in the way of us doing the things that we want to do. And there's there can be very much a feeling of having not reached your potential. And when you get to midlife and you still feel like you've not reached your potential, I think you can get a bit panicky because then you you're looking at the clock ticking and thinking, and I still haven't reached my potential, maybe I never will. And I think that inner critic is responsible for so much of it because it feeds the perfectionism. Because if you don't feel like you're going to be able to do something as well as you want to do it, or you think you need to do it, should do it, that other people will expect you to do it, then you don't want to do the thing because it just feels way too risky. And so you don't do it. But then there's a part of you that really wants to do it, so then there's this tug of war going on. Then there's the actual struggling to get on and start the thing, because procrastination can be huge related to dopamine. And so somehow you can't get yourself to actually do the thing. And why is that? And if you don't have an understanding of why that is, what's going on, and that actually perhaps there is a complete lack of dopamine, and so you try and force yourself to do it and it's such hard work, then maybe it's not meant for you, or maybe you're just lazy, maybe you don't care enough in a critic, more fuel for that. But actually, if you know that what would really help is for you to, you know, eat the cake rather than eat the frog first, to do something lovely and energizing and joyful that really gets your dopamine flowing, that's going to help you actually do the thing. But if you don't know that, then how can you make use of it? You know, yeah, the burnout comes not just from doing all the things and trying so hard and striving and all that energy, but also from not doing the things that make you feel wonderful, not doing the things that give you joy and doing too much of the things that feel like far too hard work. And so many of the women that I speak with and work with just don't allow themselves the joyful stuff because they need to do all the things that is expected of them, all the things that they feel would mean that they are a good, productive member of society. And because they're so busy doing all that stuff, there's no space left over for actually what brings them joy, what feels like creativeness and play and fun and kind of nourishes their very soul. And that doesn't happen because they are so busy trying to do all the things that they should do and all the things that is expected of them. And so that leads to burnout. And all the while that inner critic is just harping on non-stop and feeding and feeding and feeding these beliefs that you know they aren't working hard enough, that they are lazy, they need to do more, that they're letting people down, that if they try that, they'll fail therefore they shouldn't bother. It's just, it's a lot, Lee, frankly. It's a lot.

Dr Lee David 16:39

It is a lot. And I think just naming that is so important to say, hey, you're carrying a lot, and and that's the first step. And I think that can be like a you know, that sense of relief, the shoulders drop and go, actually, yes, this is a lot. And I think that's hugely the first step. This is the Choice Pause, a short tool you'll hear in every episode, drawn from my books and therapy practice. Today's pause is for creating space in moments of struggle or frustration. Take a slow breath in and a longer breath out. Allow your body to settle and feel a little heavier. Sometimes things feel harder than we expect them to. Getting started, sticking with something boring, or finishing a difficult task can take more effort or energy than we may feel we have available. In these moments, it's easy for pressure to build or for self-criticism to creep in as we start questioning why this feels so hard and what that might mean about us. See if you can pause here and simply notice what's happening. You might say to yourself, this is a difficult moment. Things feel hard right now. I'm feeling frustrated, tense, or stuck. Being hard on myself is not the answer. I can work with this one step at a time. From here, consider what might help, even just a little. It might be reducing what you're expecting of yourself for now, focusing on one really small next step, taking a short pause or an energizer, perhaps a walk or a change of scene, or simply allowing yourself to come back to it later. See what feels possible rather than perfect. As you continue with your day, notice that you can pause, ease the pressure, and support yourself to do things that matter to you. And I was just thinking about the thing you're talking about there with joy, and it strikes me there's there's kind of two issues because firstly, we all need joy in life, and I think people with ADHD in particular, it's that kind of fun, energizing, it feels really, really important for well-being to get something that this is my thing, this is something I want to be doing. I feel like that's a really powerful thing to make sure that we're including. And the other side is that if we spend all our time pressurizing ourselves and stressing and and trying to live up to external standards or internal standards, then we're always in that humber zone where we're under pressure, we're under stress, and we're probably not thinking as clearly because we're so stressed that we're not actually as functional anyway. So we need to find the joy in order to get the other stuff done. So it's kind of like a win-win if we can, because we A, have the lovely enjoyment of actually doing something we enjoy. And also, I think it also makes us better at doing all the other stuff too.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

I could not agree more, Lee. That's exactly it. But it feels so contradictory to what we have learned growing up. That actually, you know, you get the reward after you've done the hard work and you need to do your chores before you can go play. You know, you need to eat your vegetables before you're allowed to have your pudding. But that it just doesn't work like that for the ADHD brain because you are going to find it much easier to settle down to do a, you know, a tricky piece of work or something that requires a lot of concentration. If what you've done first, perhaps, is to, you know, have had a little dance party in the kitchen for 20 minutes. You know, you've allowed yourself to read a chunk of a book that you're loving at the moment. It's not like, you know, once you start this, you'll never actually sit down to do that piece of work. You will. And if you practice it, then you will discover that you can trust that you will settle down and do that work. But that is what really feeds you. And I think that so many ADHD women have just thought, well, I I can't do those things because one, I need to do the serious stuff and get that done first. But also, I'm so aware of how my energy can get really depleted and how I can just get really exhausted and I don't want to burn out. So if I do that thing, that extra thing that actually is really joyful and kind of excites me, but actually maybe it's going to be a lot of work or maybe it'll take up a lot of time, or maybe it's just, you know, frankly, too fun and joyful. Then I better not do it because I need to not use up all my energy. But actually, it can give us energy. So before we started recording, we were talking about the literary festival that I'm organizing. And so I had this idea a while ago, and I had been thinking, oh, that's a big thing. You've never done that before. Really, should you do it? And I sat on it for ages. And then I thought, but I think I would just find this so much fun. And I think it would be a lot of work, but I think it could just be really exciting. And oh, I would love to do it. And allowing myself to do it, it has been an awful lot of work, but it has energized me because it has been this brand new creative thing. I've had lots of new things to learn. There's been all kinds of creativity in terms of designing merchandise or social posts, it's brought me to contact with lots of people. It's been really energizing. But there was a time when I was thinking, I don't know if I should do this because I don't want to use up all my energy. But actually, sometimes doing the thing isn't going to actually contribute to burnout because it is going to energize us, because it is going to give us so much joy, whether that be organizing a festival or knitting a cardigan. That you've always fancied doing, or planning your garden, whatever the thing is, that could really feed us and not only makes us feel good ourselves, but then that is gonna ripple out to your work, to your family, because you're feeling good, you're energized, you're feeling creative, you're feeling inspired, you're feeling uplifted, all of those lovely things. But we can be really wary of kind of allowing ourselves to do that.

Dr Lee David 22:23

Yeah, so it's thinking about if I'm gonna say yes to something, to just check in with our values and and what's important to us and just make sure that it's aligned with that, that I'm saying yes to something that feels meaningful to me personally, and it's not the inner critic who's telling me that if you don't do it, you're you're somehow letting everybody down, you're not good enough. And it's not a negative driver, it's a positive, it's towards something that we really value. And can we think a little bit about relationships? We're hearing more and more, I think, uh at the moment about rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, and how that can impact people with ADHD. Is that something that shows up in your experience with the women that you're working with? And is that any different?

SPEAKER_01 23:07

I would say a big wholehearted yes to a lot of RSD with the women that I work with. Absolutely. I think again, it's something that maybe shows up differently for the women I work with because of the internalization. So it might be that the RSD is sort of triggered by something that somebody says, or what we perceive them to mean by what they have said or the look that they gave us. And maybe in one person it would come as an outburst, some sort of angry outburst, or bursting into tears or something. I think a lot more with my community is that there's this sort of shutdown inside. There's this sudden sort of internalization of, oh God, something awful's happened. They hate me. I've done some dreadful. And even if you're angry, even if there's very strong emotions, it's all happening inside. So it looks a bit like shutdown. Like, you know, you just stop talking, you just stop interacting, you're not looking at them. You've gone very quiet again. But inside, there's a whole turmoil happening that in a voice is going, oh my God, you're such an idiot. God, they think you're such a fool. Oh, you know, God, they hate you. They're not going to ask you to do anything again. Your nervous system has gone into complete freeze, freaked out, frankly. And because it's all happening inside, I think it can be quite hard to move through it because you're just frozen in this awful, dreadful feeling because you're not showing it on the outside that nobody else is aware of it. And therefore nobody else can be like, oh, hang on, you know, you've just you've just burst into tears. What's going on? Let's talk about it. What happened here? They all they know is perhaps that that you've just gone very quiet, shut down and locked them out. But they're like, all right, well, you're in the mood. Okay, fine, I'll just leave you alone. And therefore, you continue to spiral and stew on it on the inside and maybe stay with it longer because it hasn't been expressed. And if you don't know what RSD is, if you don't know that is what's happening, because you know, you can't control it happening, it's just it's an instant nervous system response. But if you're then not able to go, oh, okay, I now recognize I think this is RSD. I think this has just been triggered. Oh, okay, this feels horrible, and then know what to do about it, you can just stay stuck in that for a really long time.

Dr Lee David 25:07

And I think the naming of it as RST is really helpful because it otherwise can feel like, why am I reacting so much to this? And and part of us might know that it's a relatively small trigger, but yet the the response is really significant. And so like kind of giving ourselves permission to have a strong response is the first part because otherwise the critic just shows up and says, Why are you getting so upset about this? It's not a big deal. And actually, that then just intensifies the problem, I think. So for me, the very first step is to be able to say that this is RSD and it feels really hard and it's okay for me to experience this, it's not something I choose and it's not very nice, but it's okay, and I'm not doing something wrong by having it. And I think that in itself is is really powerful. The other thing that really comes to me is just recognising that being quiet doesn't mean there's not some huge thing going on under the surface. And actually, in some ways, it's the opposite. You know, when we think about trauma, when people are really experience something very significant, they often do shut down. And so thinking of the nervous system response, it may well be that this takes us right up to the red zone where we dissociate, we're disconnected from everything, we we can't think clearly, we're completely shut off. And that's a very strong nervous system response. But on the outside, it just looks, as you say, shut down quiet, maybe a bit grumpy, but not necessarily any indication of the of the depth. And so I think it's really important for people to recognize that this is a big deal, even if we're not shouting and making a big deal on the outside.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Absolutely. And I think the two things that you spoke to there are so important, which is the understanding, the knowing what is going on inside and why this is happening, why I am responding this way, why I'm feeling this way, why I'm thinking this way. Understanding that is huge because then it can just really quieten that inner critical voice and and really kind of relax the shame that instantly we can feel. And from there, we can then be more compassionate with ourselves because you know we're no longer going, oh my god, what's my problem? Why have I overreacted so much? It's in the case of okay, I know why. My brain wiring means I've responded and reacted in this really strong way, and this feels really hard, and I'm not alone in it. I know other people feel like this, and there's reason for it. Whoo, man, this is hard. How can I take care of myself? How can I be kind to myself? And that is just such an enormous shift. It's huge. And I think that that that then allows you to be able to externalize it a little bit more and be able to ask for support. What's really popping into my head is an example that I have from a holiday abroad. First holiday abroad is talking after I discovered my ADHD. And we were in Italy and we went into a museum, and I don't really speak Italian, and the woman working there didn't speak English, and she put out her hand to me. And I thought she was saying, you know, do you want an audio guide? So I said, no, thank you. And in my head, she looked really cross at me. And my husband said, Oh no, she wants to see the tickets. So I said, Oh, sorry, sorry, and showed the tickets. And she laughed and then we walked away. In my head, I thought that woman thinks, one, you are rude, two, you're you're trying to get in without pain because you've not shown your ticket. Her laugh meant she thinks you're a complete idiot. And I instantly spiral and felt like the most awful, stupid woman in the entire universe. But because I had this new knowledge about my ADHD, I then stopped and thought, okay, hang on. This might not be true. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So I said out loud to my husband, I feel like that woman thought I was a complete idiot and thinks I'm really stupid and an awful person because I didn't give a ticket. And he said, No, no, I think she she just knew you didn't understand what she meant. And then she saw the ticket and and she was fine with it. And I said, Yes, but she laughed and no, I think, I think she was just like laughing to dispel any uncomfortableness feeling around this. You know, I no, I, you know, I think it's fine. I was like, are you sure? Yeah, yeah, I think it's fine. Okay, okay. And you know, it still took a while for my nervous system to to settle and to be able to feel kind of regulated and grounded and calm again. But I got this so much quicker than if I hadn't said that out loud, I would have stood and stewed for goodness knows how long about it and just, you know, and probably to this day still have little flashbacks to, oh God, when that woman thought I was dreadful in that Italian museum. But because I knew about it, I was able to say to my husband, hang on, you know, basically have a sense check with him. This is what I'm thinking. Is that real? Is that true? Actually, no, this is his view of it. And I think that having that understanding of ourselves means that we are able to help ourselves and to ask for help in situations like that too.

Dr Lee David 29:40

That's such a great example. And what's really coming through to me thinking about that is just the power of self-compassion, of being kinder to ourselves when we experience the distress of RSD. It's not about don't feel this way, shut down the emotions as much as can I give myself a big hug and hold myself through the distress and slowly allow my nervous system time to settle and be kind to myself while that is happening and not add fuel to the fire with the critic who's there knocking on the door saying, I think they thought something really bad. And so you're like, Yes, thank you, thank you. I know you're worried that we might have made something, you know, done something. But actually, if we can hold everybody, even the critic, I I like to hold with kindness and say, thank you, I know you're just trying to help. And it feels like it's not going to eliminate the feelings of RSD. I don't know that there is a way that we know how to do that, but we can move through it. It's like a thunderstorm, perhaps, where the rain comes and we we kind of put on our jacket and give ourselves a big hug and say, Oh, let's pause and stand here under a tree and have a breath. And then slowly, slowly the cloud passes and then the sun comes out and it's like, oh, okay. And then when we're more regulated, when we're back in green, then we can start to think, well, actually, I'm sure she didn't mean anything that bad. And but at the time, it is harder to think that because we're we're quite triggered, and so our brain is already wired to look for threat. And so actually, that's not the time to really have a big discussion about what did she think? Did you think it did you do if it's something right or wrong? Because I feel like actually, when we're very triggered, we're just interpreting it quite negatively anyway. So just that kindness and allowing time and space for it to pause and then pass through, and then maybe doing that chat with your husband, it feels that feels really powerful.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so often we could go straight to the thinking, and especially introverts are such thinkers. We try to think our way out of everything, and that's how we get stuck in such overthinking loops. And sometimes, yeah, it's sometimes it has to be that you go to your to your body and you go to your nervous system, and yeah, it's the basics, focusing on your breathing or feeling your feet on the ground, noticing what it is you can see or you can hear. It's coming back to senses, all of that kind of stuff. I went straight to asking my husband and his reassurance work to a point, it definitely made a difference. And I then had to really allow, yeah, allow the feelings in my body, you know, and because I was in a museum, that was quite helpful because actually it was quite a cruel, calm place. I was then looking at various artworks and various artifacts and what have you. And I kept on sort of coming back to what he said and then coming back to my body and kind of going back and forth. I was able to sort of hear what he had said more and let that land more as time went on, as I was calming my body and my nervous system. And I think that we try to think our way out of things when actually it's yeah, let's let's tend to the nervous system first, because we can't think logically when your prefrontal cortex is completely offline, executive function has vanished because you're just in fight, flight, freeze nervous system mode.

Dr Lee David 32:37

If we move to some of the strategies you use, and I'm sure there'll be lots and lots of stuff you do with people, but from a coaching perspective, where might you begin with people?

SPEAKER_01 32:46

It's interesting because I start with what it is that they are struggling with and what is it that they would like to feel, how would they like their lives to be, and sort of really looking at that. And I don't have a very structured approach with my coaching clients because each one of us is so individual and every single one of my clients is so different to each other. Obviously, there are similarities in terms of some of the challenges, but it is very much taking a person-centered individual approach. And we can explore two different areas. So we we have the whole sort of more emotional side of looking at the thinking behind some of the actions and what the inner critic is saying and where does that come from and and what what are those beliefs and how are they serving? And then some of the real practical stuff. So if a big issue is feeling very stressed because you know you never seem to have enough time for things and you always feel like you're going to be late, and you know, you manage to not be late, but it is by the skin of your teeth and it's really stressful, then maybe a really practical thing of, well, let's time how long it takes you to do that regular thing, like getting ready in the morning or including buffer time in between various parts of your day, so that if things come up that you're not expecting, you've got that sort of extra bit of time. So there's the emotional side and there's the practical side, and both of them I think are needed.

Dr Lee David 34:01

Yeah, so it's thinking about people's values and what they care about, and then working out how do we move start moving life in that direction. You mentioned about timing there, and that really resonates with a lot of the work that I've done with women as well. And I think there's a double whammy again for ADHD people where there's a tendency to have a bit of time blindness and perhaps not always be able to judge how long things are likely to take, but also that pressure and that internal critic or maybe that imposter feeling or the people pleaser who encourages us to put more in the diary than really should be in there or could realistically be done. So it's all almost inevitable that we're going to be late because actually we've packed in a load of three other things before getting to that, all of which overran a little bit. And so it feels like we're under pressure even before we begin because the way we don't put that buffer time in, we don't put in breathing space, we don't put in transition times. And so that feels like a really hard ask in the modern world, I think.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah. And I think about the whole issue of saying yes to too many things and not saying no enough because of people pleasing. You don't want to let anybody down, you want to make sure that people like you and approve of you, you don't want to have that disconnection. So therefore you'll say yes to things when you actually don't want to, you know you haven't got the energy, or or maybe you do know you haven't got the time for it, but you daren't say no. But then there's also the the other reason, which is like a super duper optimistic yes, in that there's something that, you know, that sounds great. That sounds really interesting. Yeah, I want to do that. There's no people pleasing involved. You want to do the thing, so you say yes to it, and then it turns out that actually I do not have the time. Why did I say yes to that? I can't, I could not possibly fit that in. But now I've said yes, yikes, how am I going to squeeze it in? Or I don't have the energy, actually, you know, because I've already got four things going on that day. And that fifth thing, I I'm going to be on my knees. How am I going to do that? Yeah, it isn't just sort of managing time from a kind of a literally calendar perspective. It's not just the whole saying yes to too many things out of people pleasing. There's also that really hopeful, optimistic yes of I can fit it in. Yeah, sure thing. That sounds like fun. That sounds like a great thing. But actually, it's learning to not just say no because it's okay for you to say no when you want, your needs matter and all of that. It's also learning to say, mmm, hang on a second. Let me just think before I go diving in. I need to have a look at my diary and see, am I actually going to have the time to do it? What else have I got going on? When I really have the energy to do it, therefore can I actually say yes?

Dr Lee David 36:30

And I quite like to see that as a part of us who's just this amazingly energetic, positive, happy part who wants to do lots of stuff and gets really excited about, oh yes, I could do this and I could do that, and that sounds great. And oh yes, yes, and it's really positive, but actually can end up meaning that we are under pressure because we've taken on too much. And so it's kind of again putting boundaries around that part, but loving boundaries, so not critical boundaries, but very much, I love your enthusiasm. Thank you to the part. But I I think we need to take a breath and maybe ask the wise planning part to just take a look at the rest of our diary and work out can I do it at the moment? Do I need to put it off? Is it something that actually I do want to do right now? Again, take that breath and take a pause and then make a decision rather than doing it on that energy of the yes energy, which might lead us into taking on more than perhaps we can realistically cope with.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah. We do need to include things in our days and in our lives that are for the pure joy of it and aren't productive and aren't work and aren't for other people, and just because that interests us and that excites us, and we need that to feed us. And it's balancing that with all the other stuff you have. And I think that that sometimes just putting that pause in and just going, right, hang on, let me just put the pause button on, let me just think about this for a bit before making a decision can just make all the difference.

Dr Lee David 37:55

Definitely. And I wonder if also sometimes the hyper-focus part can show up, who once we start doing something that we're interested in, it makes it much harder to then stop. And we we can keep going and going and going, and we don't really realise that we're getting quite exhausted or time is passing, or actually we were supposed to be doing something else by now, and we haven't really let go of doing something. And again, that can come from a positive place that I'm just really engaged in what I'm doing, and it's hard to stop, and it feels uncomfortable sometimes, I think, to stop. But sometimes, again, that can just get a bit out of balance with managing all the different demands in in modern life, can't it?

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, I think hyper-focus is a it's a real double-edged sword because it can just be wonderful. You know, you can get so much done when you're hyper-focused, and it can, you know, really put you in a flow state because you're totally absorbed in what you're doing, the rest of the world has vanished because you're just completely absorbed in this wonderful thing that is that is challenging you and fascinating you and is feeding your soul. But absolutely, if you're in it for too long and actually you completely forget to eat or to move or to drink or to go for a pee, then actually, when you do come out of hyperfocus, you can then just be utterly wiped out and have a hyperfocus hangover because you haven't done all those things it needs to do. And then you wonder why you feel utterly wiped out by it. I think there's having sort of guardrails to allow yourself to get into hyperfocus, but for a limited amount of time so that you know that you can't go too long without the basics of eating and drinking and moving, but that you're not going to be interrupted as a surprise, because that can then also really hack you off if actually you're right in the zone and then somebody comes along and says, I want my dinner or whatever. But actually, if you know, okay, this is how much time I've got, you can allow yourself to get into it without getting completely lost in it.

Dr Lee David 39:44

Just to finish, we always do a choice space takeaway. So for someone listening who may be recognizing themselves in our conversation, what's one small helpful step that they might take in the next few days or weeks?

SPEAKER_01 39:58

First of all, to go very gently on yourself because it can be a lot. If this is if this is feeling like a brand new realization for you, it can be quite a lot, especially if you have gone multiple decades in your life, not having a clue about it, and then suddenly this feels like it could be describing you and be sort of the answer to so many of the questions in your life. So I think go very gently on yourself and and to know that there is nothing that you have to do. It's your choice. Do you want to stick with it for a while? Do you want to talk to somebody you trust about what you've been learning and what this could mean for you? Do you want to read more, listen more, watch more? You know, do you want to go down a research rabbit hole and read some books and listen to some podcasts? There's nobody that you have to talk to. There's nobody that you have to tell. It's what feels like it would be helpful and supportive for you. And that might be doing nothing whatsoever. And that's okay. Whatever it is that feels like this is this is what I want to do next, that is the right step for you.

Dr Lee David 40:58

Amazing. And I think I'm going to pick mine today that builds on something that you were talking about earlier, which is the importance of movement for regulation for the ADHD brain. And I think weaving in little movement breaks, whether it's going for a little walk, just swaying, standing up, stretching, whatever it involves, I think that's incredibly powerful. And trying to step out of thinking our way out of distress, because when we are very stimulated or distressed, I think that's very hard. Maybe weight to work a bit more regulated to do the thinking afterwards and move our way out of distress. So, Gabrielle, how can people find you?

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Well, you can find me at Gabrielle Trainer on Instagram. Gabrieltrainor.com is my website. Or if you go to quietadh.com, that's where you'll find my online community at the Quiet ADHD Club. And you can find my literary festival, the UK's first literary festival dedicated entirely to well-being books, which is called Better Read Bookfest. So that's betterreadbookfest.com.

Dr Lee David 41:59

Thanks for listening to the Choice Space podcast. I hope this conversation has offered a little room to pause and choose your next step. We've included links to Gabrielle's website and all of her links to connect with her in the show notes. If this episode has been helpful, please download, follow, and share with anyone else who might value the space as well. And please do leave a rating or review on whatever podcast platform you're listening on. It really does help people find our show.