Choosing Good Enough in Family Life

Modern family life can leave parents feeling pulled in all directions – trying to support their children, manage daily pressures and make the right decisions in a world full of advice, expectations and opinions about getting it right. In that context, the idea of being a good enough parent can feel both reassuring and like an important reset.

In this episode of The Choice Space, Dr Lee David is joined by clinical psychologist and author Dr Tara Porter to explore what good enough parenting really means, and why it matters for children’s mental health and family wellbeing.

They discuss how modern parenting has become increasingly outcome-focused, with pressure around education, activities, behaviour and getting things right. Tara reflects on how these pressures can make parenting feel like something to optimise or perfect – and how aiming for the messy middle instead can help families find more flexibility, balance and connection.

The conversation also explores relationship-based parenting, including the importance of showing up, staying present and allowing for rupture and repair. Rather than aiming to be endlessly calm or perfect, Tara highlights the value of authenticity, emotional competence and adjusting as children grow and change.

They also discuss the idea of being firm and kind – holding boundaries in a way that is guided by values rather than control. From phones and screens to everyday family life, the episode looks at how parents can stay connected while still offering structure, guidance and care.

This is a thoughtful conversation about easing pressure, focusing on what matters and finding a more compassionate, realistic way to parent.

Key moments

00:21 Good enough parenting
02:16 Where the idea comes from
03:33 Pressure, culture and modern life
06:39 The messy middle
13:13 Relationship-based parenting
19:26 Rupture and repair
29:46 Being firm and kind
32:04 Values and boundaries
36:13 Emotional competence
42:18 Lead with relationship

About the guest

Dr Tara Porter is a clinical psychologist and author with 28 years’ NHS experience working with children, adolescents and families, specialising in eating disorders. She now works privately in London, with a particular focus on the adolescent and young adult years. Tara has a strong interest in mental health in schools, contributing to the Anna Freud Centre’s Schools in Mind project, writing for TES and teaching in schools. She is also an Associate Tutor at UCL and the author of several books including You Don’t Understand Me and Good Enough: A Framework for Modern Parenting.

Connect with Tara via LinkedIn or Instagram @drtaraporterpsychologist

About the host

Dr Lee David is a GP, CBT therapist and author specialising in mental health and wellbeing. Lee has written many books on CBT, mindfulness and teen wellbeing, and speaks regularly at conferences and in the media. Away from work she enjoys running, hiking, singing in a choir and spending time outdoors with her family. You can find Lee through her website and on Instagram, TikTok (@dr.lee.david), Facebook and LinkedIn.  You can find more about her books, wellbeing courses and therapy here:  https://linktr.ee/dr.lee.david 

Transcript

Tara Porter (00:00)
The standards and expectations want our kids to meet, worry so much about their outcomes, about education, And we've got to get the center point, to the good enough that teaches our children so much.

Lee (00:21)
Welcome to the Choice Space podcast. I'm Dr. Lee David, GP, CBT therapist and author. Today, we're talking about good enough parenting. What it means and how the pressure to get things can impact on family life.

Parents care deeply about their children, yet can often find themselves caught between competing advice, busy lives and fears about getting it wrong.

Being good enough isn't about lowering standards. It's about relationships, boundaries, and finding everyday moments of connection that support children's confidence and emotional resilience. I'm really delighted today to be joined by Dr Tara Porter, clinical psychologist and author of Good Enough:

A framework for modern parenting. With nearly three decades experience with children, adolescents and families, she specialises in supporting young people's mental and family relationships. 

Tara, welcome. Could you start by introducing yourself telling us a little about your work?

Tara Porter (01:29)
thank you, Lee. Thank you for having me. Well, my work, the majority of my work was done in the NHS. So I worked in CAMHS for about 25 years. Working for CAMHS is Child and Adolescent Mental Health. I've also on a lot of work in schools about mental health there, teaching and designing ⁓ trainings for teachers about mental health.

And now I work primarily in the private sector and I write about parenting, children, mental health, all that good stuff.

Lee (02:02)
Amazing! And let's think about this idea about good enough parenting because I've read your book and it really resonated with me in so many different ways. But let's start with the basics. What do we mean by good enough parenting?

Tara Porter (02:16)
Well, good enough parenting isn't something I've invented. It comes originally from a psychotherapist called Donald Winnicott who worked in the 1950s. And he was worried at that time about the over-professionalization of parenting, which he thought was taking mothers, sexist times, so it was just about mothers back then, away from their own intuition about what was their child. And I sometimes think...

Paul Winnicott would be sort of turning in his grave because we've become, I think, more more kind of professionalized in our parenting. It's something you do rather than being a parent, being in a relationship with somebody.

The standards and expectations want our kids to meet, we worry so much about their outcomes, about education, And we've got to get back the center point, to the good enough which teaches our children so much.

Lee (03:08)
and it feels like that pressure comes from lots of different places. So parenting plays a role, but there are lots of aspects of life that also impact on mental health in children and young people. I think it's really important to recognise that breadth. that parents, we do have influence but it's also important to see all of the other things as well, some of which might be quite outside our control.

Tara Porter (03:33)
exactly we're looking at a cultural social environment. we're all much more connected, and there's a sense of a global community and lots of things about that are really excellent and fun and good for us, and we all enjoy foreign travel and being more in touch with people who we care about who live know, it adds a sort of sense of competition to life.

lots of different factors can go together to impact where we are now in terms of our children and our children's mental health. in the book, I three ideas. education and also about the digital world, social media, gaming and all that which have come together and created this perfect storm of factors which has really impacted on young people's mental health, I think, for the last generation.

Lee (04:20)
So it sounds really important to be aware of all these wide ranging factors that are influencing. And I don't think they just influence our young people. They also influence parents as well. 

And I wonder if that also creates a pressure on us as parents to want to show up very perfect way, perhaps which might put us under pressure and might contribute to some of the issues that can arise at home when inadvertently we're wanting to put children's well-being at the forefront and we're still feeling under pressure how to do that and that can actually become a perfectionist idea in its own right, can't it?

Tara Porter (04:54)
Absolutely, yeah. think as parents, we're really keen to put all the problems of modern childhood onto the phone and to screens and onto the digital world. But actually, we don't like to think about how much we're influenced by that. 

So in my book, I explore identity as a parent and one of the more toxic identities that I think we can really fall into unwittingly thinking we're doing the right thing in a way is that of the internet perfect parent, who's always there and serene and with a child perfectly dressed and seemingly well behaved and doing lots of activities a wonderfully organized and color coordinated home. And it can really impact on our sense of how well we're doing, you

Lee (05:42)
I I speak to a lot of parents and I do feel when things are not going well our children, this tremendous sense of blame and sense of failure that we're not doing enough as a parent. And I think it's trying to find that way through that where we focus on what really matters and the things that matter to us, creating connection and being kinder to ourselves as well, it all feels very important.

Tara Porter (06:09)
I couldn't agree more. it's not about doing more. It's about doing the right stuff, right? in my book, I take it back to three principles of parenting, which I think can see you through from having a baby right through to an 18. 

And to try and move away from what, the internet perfect parent, the education system, a kind of outcome based world pushes you to do and really connect to what we know is good for children's mental health.

Lee (06:34)
So let's talk about those three aspects of good enough parenting, because I think they're really important.

Tara Porter (06:39)
well, the first principle is having a good enough attitude as a not getting waylaid by ideas about perfection or extremity or always doing. I talk a lot in the book about a 'better & more' where you're always thinking I should be doing this, I should be doing that. I feel like that tendency often takes us away from actually where we need to be, which is more in the messy middle in the flexibility in the connection, in the reciprocity in all of these sorts of values.

We know on the one hand don't want to fall into having no standards. We're not talking about being neglectful or abusive on one end of the continuum. But for me, this move towards the sort of of parenting, the extremity in parenting, I think it started around the turn of the century parenting became much more of word that was used and how to be the best parent and how to get the best outcomes. 

And I remember when my eldest was born in the year 2000 and everywhere you went, was stuff marketed as sort of educational, the black and white cot toys, which would stimulate their retina or something, and then we get the absolute maximum potential out of our child, that idea. 

And I suppose the good enough parenting is about taking that back a little bit because, as a mental health professional working with adolescents, I've just seen so much damage done by that attitude unwittingly by lovely parents who've tried their best, and gone along with what they thought was the right way to parent because it's the parenting of our time.

I see kids who sit in clinic and just feel way down by the expectations of getting grade eight on the piano or achieving at a high level at their football or getting the top grades at their GCSEs, always being good friend or kind person. And they just feel actually that they can never meet these standards. that is what was the tipping point for me writing this book really seeing all that pain in the clinic day after day after day and thinking about where have we gone wrong? What can we undo in society and parenting to take that back to a more a less extreme place? Yeah, that parenting isn't a sport. It isn't a competition to get the best child, so that's the good enough idea.

Lee (08:59)
I love the idea and there's so much there to unpack. And I think just starting with some of that distress that you're seeing and just holding compassion for the children, for young people and for parents who are so often striving to do our best to show up in the way that seems to be best and putting ourselves under pressure. And actually that pressure is being felt throughout the family and it's causing harm to everybody in a lot of ways. 

Tara Porter (09:30)
Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking about school pickup when you said that. And, know, often as a working parent, you'd be rushing towards school pickup and your kids would want a snack. They always come out of school absolutely starving, right?

And then you'd think, no, I can't get that chocolate bar. I need to get something healthy. That idea of always having to reach the top standard. And I have to be on time. And then I have to take them to this activity. And then I have to get home and do their reading with them.

And so the expectations on parents weigh us down. And then when our kids don't play ball, when they want to stop and dawdle, no, we haven't got time for dawdling. It's a pressure on the whole system. So let's just dial it back a bit and get into the middle where the good enough lives and how, it's fine to have a kit-kat. And it's OK if you don't always do the activities.

It is important to read with your child, but if you don't read with them every night because you're busy or you're tired or you're not feeling very well or you want to spend time with your partner, it doesn't mean they're not going to succeed in life. So just having that sense of balance in expectations on ourselves, which makes the whole thing less pressure.

Lee (10:37)
Absolutely, I remember we used to read and then we used to really struggle to write it down which we were supposed to do in a notebook for the teacher and it was like this pressure you had to write about the books and I had to list them and actually we just enjoyed the reading so we had to give up on that and say look we're just gonna read and and that's fine and accept that

Tara Porter (10:43)
That's good enough!

Lee (10:57)
And we're going to have fun with it. And we enjoyed the reading. We did not enjoy the writing down about the reading. 

Tara Porter (11:03)
really, if you've got a child who doesn't get reading easily, it can come really painful. You you're trying to spell out every single word and do it phonetically rather than making it a joyful time, a time where they start enjoying stories, a time where you have a cuddle, a time where everyone unwinds because you're busy spelling out, and making it that kind of outcome. You've got to teach them, you know.

Lee (11:25)
Yeah, exactly that. So there's a couple of things I'd really like to highlight in what you've said there that feel really important to me. And one of them is the messy middle. And that is an idea that I use so much of the time in therapy for lots of different experiences in life, because I think it really represents something about the pressure that

Lee (11:43)
many people put ourselves under in the modern world to live up to some external standard. So it's also about outcome focused thinking, thinking about I'm supposed to live up to something. And if I haven't, then I've somehow failed. And it's very much an external standard. It's not our own values, which I think we'll probably come back to, but it's about putting that external pressure. And I love the idea of the messy middle.

I often talk about a seesaw where at the one end we're very extreme, we're pushing hard, we have these crazy difficult expectations. And the other end, we've given up and we haven't tried at all. And, in parenting, as you've mentioned, that might slide into neglectful behaviour, which nobody would say would be a healthy parenting approach. But is the opposite of that is not this perfection.

 It's finding the reality, which is the messy middle where we do our best, we think about the things that matter. We try to have healthy food at least sometimes and then we let them have the Kit Kat at other times. We show up on time most of the time, but then sometimes, we don't manage it. And we model not being perfect. And that gives our children permission to also not be perfect, which I think also takes some of the pressure off them when they're then facing challenges, perhaps like exams or in social situations. 

where actually we're saying, it's okay, I'm not perfect. I do my best, I still like myself AND I'll still love you if we don't tick every single box.

Tara Porter (13:13)
I couldn't agree more I love your seesaw. I talk about a seesaw too in the book and I I see the good enough, in the middle of the seesaw and isn't about lowering our standards because standing in the middle of the seesaw, know, not at either extreme requires constant adjustment, doesn't it? requires constantly trying to balance. And that's what I think parenting is about because you're showing up

The second principle, relationship-based parenting. in parenting, you need to show up in relationship to your child who might be nothing like you and might not have the same agenda as you in terms of outcome-based, or they might. Either way can be problem. 

So that idea of being in the middle and trying to balance and respond isn't a cop-out. I'm not giving parents a cop-out, but it is more joyful, it's more fun, it's more flexible, it's less controlled, it's less rigid. and I guess what we see in mental health is nearly always some principle taken to extreme. So I've worked a lot in eating disorders and there people take ideas about, being slim or being healthy and they take them to the extreme to a point where it becomes unhealthy and dangerous to their health, dangerous to their wellbeing,

I see it in work as well, in so many of the kids I see these days have got real problems with overworking on their academics. it becomes their identity, but it becomes a source of so much distress and that getting one B feels catastrophic. So so many different areas we see. 

That's why when I was writing this book, I was very inspired by a quote, which is attributed to Desmond Tutu, which is, eventually we have to just pulling people out of the river and go upstream and see why they're falling in. And working in child and adolescent mental health, having so many young people referred to us over the 20 years I was there, I just wanted to think what are we doing as society, as parents, that is causing so many kids to fall in the river upstream,

So that's what I'm trying to think How can we can prevent mental health problems for the next generation? I think avoiding some of that extremity and standing in middle of that seesaw and ADJUSTING is really important.

Lee (15:26)
Yeah, and it just feels to me that instead of it being a blame, you know, we're doing it all wrong, but very much how do we look after ourselves and our families so that we can thrive in this very pressured world that we're living? And so it doesn't have to feel like someone's to blame. There's a sort compassionate view where this is a challenging world. There's a lot of pressure. Things are changing fast.

we're not always equipped to even understand some of the pressures that our children are facing, nevermind how to actually address So we're muddling through in a lot of ways where there isn't certainty. And so there's something about navigating uncertainty not being sure of the outcome. If I do this as a parent, this will mean that my child will be fine. There will nothing will go wrong.

And I think we all want that. And yet I don't know that that actually exists as an idea because uncertainty is inherent, isn't it, in everything that we do. And so I think one of the things that we can fundamentally come back to is perhaps one of your second principle, which is the relationship, because that feels to me really fundamental for everybody. it regulates, there's a kind of co-regulation. If we've got a strong relationship, then actually we all feel soothed and settled.

Could you talk a little bit about what relationship based parenting is and what you mean by that in your book?

Tara Porter (16:49)
I think what you've just said about the no certainty is so important. mean, so many times when I'm seeing adults or adolescents in therapy, their search for control, the unbearableness we can do our best, but still bad things can happen, or we can do our best and still the one thing we didn't think of might happen. 

I think it's particularly unbearable for parents because you love them so much. You want to be able to smooth their path through life and know that these things aren't going to happen to them. But of course that's not the case. So yeah, but what you can offer is a relationship. And what we know about relationship is it's one of the most important factors for good mental health and for wellbeing.

And the trouble is that as parents, when we try and control and make everything right and, focus on our kids' outcome, what that takes us away from is the relationship. So when we're trying to get that healthy snack and trying to be on time and trying to get them to the next activity and trying to keep yourself calm and all of that sort of thing and planning the evening meal and, taking the work email at the same time, trying to be perfect. 

What we're not doing is actually listening, looking our kid in the eyes, checking out how their day is, because we're always busy and hurried and worried and stressed. being an outcome-based parent is a future-focused position. You're always looking for the future, and that's a kind of anxious position.

And actually what I'm talking about with relationship based parenting is more being in the moment, with that unique individual up what's going on for them. And that's the most protective thing you can do. And it's so hard. when they get older, we so want to offer advice. And yet we have to stay with the relationship.

Lee (18:35)
It's really interesting because relationships are actually quite tricky, it's actually sometimes simpler to think, well, I'm going to plan healthy snacks and that's And actually children can be complicated. They can be in a grumpy mood. They can refuse to communicate. They go through phases where they're really interested in stuff that we're not interested in at all.

And so we're trying to work out how to have a relationship with someone who is very different to us, different age, different way of looking at the world, different peer group. And yet we have this lovely connection, which feels really fundamental and which I think the vast majority of us

Tara Porter (18:56)
Yeah.

Lee (19:11)
But I think we can be perfectionist in what that is supposed to be as well, and it's this kind hearts and flowers version of a relationship. I'm not sure that is what actual relationships families are like. I think they're kind the messy middle again. What are your thoughts, Tara?

Tara Porter (19:26)
Absolutely. because you only have to be good enough on the relationship based parenting as well, I think one of most important things in a relationship with your kids is just keep showing that's the attachment relationships. You're building attachment with them. then the second most important thing is about rupture and repair. It's not about always being there for your kids. It's about being there, showing up.

and sometimes making mistakes and then repairing that and moving on. So you don't have to be perfect. don't have to be... One of the things I see a lot on the internet is about gentle parenting, about always showing up for your children's big emotions and always responding in a particularly calm and caring way. And I just don't know how anyone can do that because... at the heart of it, you're in a relationship, you're bringing yourself to that. And you've got to be honest and, have integrity about it. But you've got to try your best to meet that other person where they are, ⁓ you know, in their interests. 

I mean, I'm sure many of your listeners will remember a stage or be in a stage where their kid is interested in, ⁓ I don't know, or jujitsu and you just feel like all you're talking about is Tyrannosaurus Rex or going and you're just thinking, my do I meet this? And you have to meet that with trying to make a connection with somebody who's different from you but also holding true to yourself. that's the key.

Lee (20:53)
it's back to that seesaw idea, I think, where the goal is for me, something about being present at least some of the time. And I feel like if we're present authentically, then we are likely to build that attachment, which I think is important for everybody in a family have a secure attachment in our relationships. And so showing up, as you mentioned, being present.

⁓ not necessarily being perfect though, like I'm always calm, because I don't know that that is authentic. But equally, middle is that we don't allow our very strong emotions to impact harmfully our children, but we don't hold them away so much that they don't see us having emotions. And so there's that sense of perfectionism that they think, well, surely that adults don't have emotions. And so I think there's something about, again, modeling.

⁓ and finding our way through that feels quite complicated.

Tara Porter (21:47)
Yeah, it is quite complicated. It's really on that middle part of the seesaw, isn't it, of trying to balance the two things. And the dinner table, we know is a really good place to show up in relationship with your kids. But we can have so many other competing demands on us, like that they eat.

the food that we've prepared or that they have good table manners or that they don't argue with their brothers or sisters or that they hurry up because we've got to get on to the next thing. That we forget to be there present in the relationship. We are always focused on the future. show up in a way where we're listening to our kids and hopefully modeling them listening to other people and about how to...
pay attention to people. And that's before we even get onto phones or screens, which obviously can be distracting at that time as well.

Lee (22:36)
really interesting the idea about a dinner table. recall having a client a few years ago and he had, quite a young child maybe four or five who struggled to sit down and eat and would wander around, pick a bit and then stand up again. And for him the idea his child standing up meant that he wasn't respected that and so it's very much about identity

We unpicked that and explored the fact that maybe that's just what four-year-old children do. They find it difficult to sit down and it might not relate to whether he was respected as a person. And actually, is there a way to build a relationship and slowly start to create some boundaries, but actually do it in such a way that our own identity is not at stake, our own self-esteem is not on the line if our child is
not hungry today or they say, I hate this, even though cooked it 20 times before and they've loved it. And then today they say, no, I don't like, I've never liked that. And, there's that sense I failed or there's a sense of what's going on for them. 

How do I regulate myself, make room for the fact that I feel frustrated and tired and I'm busy at work and my boss is a bit mean today? And also show up in a way that maintains our relationship.

Tara Porter (23:49)
Yeah, I think go back to the good enough idea and this towards being in relationship with our child to being parenting as a sort of job with an outcome. Like we should have some smart goals on it or something like that, you know? because when you professionalize being a parent, then your four year old's child wandering around at dinner table feels like a failure, feels like you haven't met your SMART goals. If you think about being in a relationship with that four year old, then you think what they might be feeling, how you can get them connect with you, how you can get them to eat whatever you want them to eat, it going to be that they're going to sit on your lap and are you going to set a rod for your own back with that or your plan is, when you're defining yourself in the sense through that parenting it gets in the way, right? The standards and expectations you have get in the way of you being a good enough parent.

Lee (24:40)
Yes, so it's actually a block to effective action, isn't it?

Tara Porter (24:45)
So many of these standards and expectations, it's like the standard and expectation that you'll always be calm or you'll always respond in the right way to their emotions. If you have that standard, you're going to fail probably by about nine o'clock in the morning, you know? And if you just have the standard that you're going to respond to somebody as another human being, your kid, you have to and support, but you don't have to control every single outcome and you don't have to always respond with the perfect response.

Because what happens when you fail is then you go to the other extreme, right? We're talking about the extremity again. Then you can end up shouting and blaming somebody and feeling terrible about yourself. And it all escalates, which is why the messy middle is such an important place to be.

Lee (25:29)
This is the choice pause.
A short tool you'll hear in every episode drawn from my books and therapy practice. Each time it offers something different to help you pause, notice and choose your next step.

And today we have a kindness pause within family life. Take a slow breath in and a longer breath out.

Let your shoulders soften.
Unclench your jaw.
Allow your hands to rest where they are.
Many family moments ask a lot of us. Getting out of the door on time, managing sibling conflict. Responding to big emotions.  holding boundaries when we're tired.

See if you can offer yourself a brief pause with kindness before responding.
Take another slow breath and exhale with a long gentle sigh. widen your awareness just a little.
Notice your feet on the floor, support beneath you, the chair, the ground, the room around you.
Place a hand on your heart and quietly acknowledge, this is hard.
I wish myself well.
I'm doing the best that I can and that is good enough.

From this place, ask yourself, what would be most helpful right now?
Perhaps it's slowing the moment down.
holding a boundary with kindness and strength.
asking for support.
meeting someone's basic need.
Maybe it's hunger, thirst or tiredness, or maybe it's easing the pressure or expectations that you're placing on yourself.

See if you can carry this small pocket of kindness with you.
A reminder that you can respond rather than react and choose kindness as the day continues.

Lee (27:37)
I think we can also make sure that we don't fall into perfectionism about being present. So it really feels like relationship is about presence and connection and slowing down But it doesn't have to be all day, every day or in a very unrealistic way that puts us under pressure or ignores the reality of our lives, which often we do have multiple pressures, multiple competing demands on our time and on our focus. 

So it's just making sure that we're not perhaps using scrolling as a coping strategy for stress, and missing out on some lovely moments of or focusing too heavily on these outcomes that we've talked about and then missing the moments in between where we can connect on the way. So maybe in some families it's, well, when I'm driving, we'll have a chat and we'll use it as an find out what's going on or maybe it's at the dinner table or maybe it's reading a story.

Tara Porter (28:32)
Yeah, absolutely, finding those moments where you can really connect. of course you don't have to be connected 100 % of the time.

if you're going to be a perfectly calm, present parent, always there 100 % of the time, you're really not preparing your child for real life because nobody else is going to be like that. You're not preparing them for their first relationship. You're setting unrealistic expectations. that like is about the repetitions that you do in the gym, they don't say just lift the weight once, right? You lift the weight once and then you put it down and you have to do the repetitions. A

nd that's like, you're with your child and then you're away and then you're coming back and it's about those little ruptures in your family life of not being together and then coming back together and...connecting again. 

So that's how we build sense of connection, not by being 100 % present 100 % of the time, which is a completely unrealistic standard that you're never going to meet. absolutely make your decisions about where you're going to connect to your child. your child is now going through 11 to 13 time where they start to think about phone, that is a really good time to be thinking about what boundaries you set, which we might take us on to talking about firm and kind, which is my third principle. because

Lee (29:46)
Yeah, so this idea about firm and kind, often think we think of it as we either have to be firm or kind. I do think we set them up as opposing to one another, that they can't both exist in the same space. And I really, really like the idea about bringing them together and actually recognizing that they work together to create that safe space where there's consistency, also flexibility and kindness.

Could you talk to us a bit more about the idea of firm and kind and how that relates to good enough parenting?

Tara Porter (30:18)
Yeah, and again, firm and kind isn't something that I've invented, you know, the research all through psychology is showing that what they call authoritative parenting the best outcomes for kids. And I've renamed that firm and kind because through my book, I look at at the baby stage, I the preschool stage, I look primary school age group, and I look at it tweens and teenagers. and phones comes to mind when I'm thinking about firm and kind.

And I absolutely do think that parents need to be firm on phones. There's quite a lot of research coming out now about how damaging they can be to young people. And I certainly think phones and gaming are the problems that I see all the time, exacerbating the mental health problems of the adolescents and young adults that I work with. But when we go in really firm, we often go in really authoritarian. So sort of prison-guarding mode.

you must always have your phone out of your room by 10pm, you must always have your phone, you must answer your phone to me. it sets up a power struggle about the phone and it takes away from the connection you have with your young person. So absolutely be firm, but you want to keep the connection going because

Undoubtedly, they will make mistakes on the phone, when they're using the phone or when in their gaming habits. Undoubtedly, there would be things that they would benefit from your wisdom or talking to you about when they're using these digital devices. And if you've come down to firm, sort of prison guard firm, then what happens is they don't come talk to you about it and you lose that sense of connection.

because why they will want your help and why they want your guidance and why would they would keep your rules is because of the relationship basically.

Lee (32:04)
So it really all ties together and I'm really hearing about maintaining the relationship, about thinking about what's important. And you also talk about values-based firmness. And I'm wondering if that's about thinking about what really matters to us as a family, to me as a parent, also to my child, and we all care about? And then choosing firmness around our values rather than...

I'm just going to impose this very rigid external structure. And if we don't live up to it, we've somehow failed And brings that very negative tone. And I'm wondering if that also supports being firm in a way that feels more meaningful.

Tara Porter (32:43)
Absolutely, yes. So, with the phone, you know, when you're thinking about what you want your kid to use the phone for, not to use the phone for, you might say, I want you to use it to connect to your friends. I don't want you to use it for things where you're posing in particular ways searching for stuff all appearance based stuff, you can choose what your values are. you with the gaming, I, want you to be able to connect to your friends, but I don't want you to be on stuff, which I consider really aggressive, that's not the value of our family. 

And so it's a place where you can reiterate and make clear what your values are. Now, of course, they're going to pull away from that in teenage years, but you've set the foundation stones, haven't you? Because we all know that, kids rarely, I mean, sometimes, but not always, do what we say in the moment. But of course, our values go through you like the writing through a stick of rock, right? 

I expect everybody listening can remember some value that their parent has, which they perhaps share or they don't share, they rebelled against. But we always know that that's what our parents thought about something. So we just have to be explicit about that being firm and kind about whatever issue we're facing.

Lee (33:59)
Yeah, I really like that idea. And I think actually, when they are explicitly discussed, this is something that we feel is important, these things matter to us, then I think it gives more flexibility as well, because a value is not a behaviour. So there's lots of different ways that you might respond to a value KINDNESS or safety or connection. 

And so there is a bit of room then to be able to negotiate perhaps or to collaborate about well what does it look like because some of the things are outside our experiences. As children we didn't have some of the pressures, we didn't have some of the now exist and I think we do need to come at it not as a hard line but as how do we explore this together but with the firmness of, my values are protecting, connection, there might be something around violence and not being exposed to that, for example. And so it feels like there's just a bit more room to be able to think about what that might look like,

Tara Porter (35:01)
certainly when mean, in primary school years, most kids not all of kids, but lots of kids are pretty compliant. It's more in the teens and tweens years you start they start questioning and that's part of their developmental trajectory, right? It's part of their separation from us as parents and starting to move towards their own adult identity that they start questioning our ways. But yeah, you're right, values give us that flexibility to respond to the digital world. if you're setting a value around connection, or, respectful, or about the digital world coming secondary to other activities or being outside or spending family time, then you've still got a value that spans everything.

But also it gives you a place when you're standing on that middle of that seesaw and you're not to go to one extreme of completely ignoring an issue or the other extreme, which is completely controlling over it. You're standing in the middle trying to find it what is my value here? do I value is a good way to guide you.

But it also shows that idea of modeling to your child. Like, I don't have all the answers. I'm figuring this out as I go along. I'm trying to be flexible. I'm trying to respond to you as an individual. All this stuff, which is so important, to teach children.

Lee (36:13)
in the book you talk about emotional competence alongside skills, so we might focus heavily on passing an exam or playing piano to grade eight or lots of other practical skills and they're not bad, they have lots and lots of value and we also need to as you said before, extremeness is when it becomes problematic I think, but emotional competence is another set of skills that perhaps it's a bit quieter and I wondered if you also think that's important.

Tara Porter (36:41)
I do. the start of the book, I set what I call my manifesto for mental IT'S responding to the adolescents and the young adults I typically see in therapy and thinking about what skills they needed have better mental health. and emotional competence is one of those. 

And I think it's a really important one because the world young people are facing because of the digital revolution, because of the globalization, because of the education system is infinitely more complex than the one we faced. They need a greater degree of being able to name their emotions, be able to respond to things in a way that is linked to their values, for example. So we have to have... capacity to be able to hold, emotions. so when you think about, any aspect of say teenage life, like not being invited to a party or being left out of a friendship group.

So if you didn't used to be invited to the party, you'd just be at home, you wouldn't know about the party, but now it's all over social media, you see it, and it raises so many more emotions. So that's why emotional really important and like for us a parent, modelling those skills, keeping that connection going, offering the kindness as well as the firmness is really important.

Lee (37:50)
So it sounds like there's something about being able to name, in that example, it must be so disappointing and I'm sure you're feeling really hurt and making room for those feelings. And I think not rushing to want to get rid of them, to cheer them up, to make them feel better as much as make some space, regulate, maybe do something healthy that helps distract a little bit from the intensity so they're not getting buried in these really difficult thoughts and emotions.

but equally not trying to eliminate them because I feel like that then also be problematic if we HAVE A value as a family and we maybe WE really prioritize outdoor activity as well as being on screens. They might feel very disappointed or upset because they miss out on something because they've been out for a as their parents instead being online and they've missed out something.

we need to make space for the emotions being valid. It doesn't mean we buy into the idea shouldn't have been with us, but equally we can still make space for the fact that they do have those emotions.

Tara Porter (38:51)
I think that you've defined very nicely exactly what emotional competence is, isn't it? I mean, it's the ability to sort tame your emotions really. So sort be able to give voice to them, but not to be dominated by them, a parent, you're with your child and they're disappointed with something you want to listen. So you want to be finding that empathy with them, the curiosity about what's going on for them.

but then you don't want their emotions to dominate family life. Because again, that isn't setting them up future life. want to be able to hear their emotions, accept them, and also have your values about YOU believe is the right thing, your example being outdoors, and your value of connection that we spend time together as a family.

Hear their emotions. not trying to lessen them or solve them then to move on with life. Yeah.

you're using your values there, your values as a family, your values to be outdoors, your values to have a sense of connection.

hear their feelings about it, but then hold on to your values. But then also, because you're in a relationship with them, you have to respond to as they get older, it is completely natural for an 18 year old not out with their parents. 

And it's often very painful for parents happens much younger than that, at 13 or 14 they start disappearing into the bedroom, they don't want to hang out with you so much. It's completely normal part of the developmental trajectory start to look more towards their peers, towards their future generation and of course you have to be responsive of that. So you're holding all those values and making a decision about when it's right for you to give more autonomy to them.

Lee (40:33)
maybe we have to have our own emotional competence because we might need to make space for some grief some loss around the fact that they're evolving our role in their is changing. And so it's really important that we're able to recognize that and be kind to ourselves.

but not try and control it to the point that it's actually unhealthy or unhelpful. And we might need to flex how we connect with them in order to maintain the connection. the value is the connection, right? It's not the, must go for a walk in this way on a particular day. how does connection work with this child at this age and then at this age? And they always change. And every time you think you've got it nailed, they change again, don't they?  we have to be quite inventive and quite flexible, I think.

Tara Porter (41:21)
Exactly. So we were talking about earlier in the podcast about, when they're three or four and they're into dinosaurs and you spend your whole time at the Natural History Museum. But, know, when they're 16 or 17, it's the same sort of thing. How are you connecting to them? If you're It might be that You start going to football matches with them or you have your nails painted.

⁓ my daughter loves having her nails painted and that is a time when we can actually go and be together. you have to adjust to what they bring just imposing your idea about what that's going to look like on them. And you'll learn lots of new stuff as well.

Lee (41:55)
So that's really those ideas about curiosity and empathy leaning into them as being individual people that have something to contribute and learning from them. To finish, we always do a choice space takeaway. 

So for parents listening who might want to take a couple of small steps towards being good enough.

What's one small realistic change that they could try this week?

Tara Porter (42:18)
think to lead with the relationship. So often I do talks in the evening to parents at schools it's very easy for me when I get home to start leading with outcome to go, kids, have you done your homework? Have you eaten your dinner? Has anyone fed the dog? Who's taken the bins out? And to think about all the things to be doing. So leading with relationship is just saying, how are you? How was your day?

how did things go for you? Talking about something about your day, you know, rather than leading with outcome. So today with your kids, lead with relationship, not outcome.

Lee (42:51)
I love that. And I would add to that, build on that, be curious and notice what are they doing and go and say, can you tell me a bit about that? And so connect at something that they have an interest in, so be willing to meet them in their space rather than all of those things which are our, that's our to-do list. It's not theirs. Theirs involves all sorts of other things that we may not even know about. So.

I think trying to find that connection at a place where they're at feels really important to me.

Tara Porter (43:22)
I agree with you. Connect to what doing. Yeah. There's a terrible TV show that they're watching. Some game that they're playing that you know you're completely incompetent on.

Lee (43:32)
Yeah, you know, tell me, teach me about that game. Tell me something about the game that I don't know, which should probably be everything. and so we can just start to learn through them and have that joy and curiosity in exploring their world.

Tara Porter (43:36)
Yeah, exactly.  Yeah, it's it's connection.

Lee (43:49)
Thanks for listening to the Choice Space podcast. I hope this conversation has offered a little more room to pause, breathe, and find your own way forward.

We've linked the ways that you can connect to Tara in the show notes and also to her wonderful book.

Enough, a Framework for Modern Parenting. If today's episode has been helpful, please download, follow and share with someone else who might value the space as well. I'd love to have you with me for the next episode. Until then, take care and keep making space for what matters most. 

This episode was edited by Elle Dixon.