Finding Connection Through Singing

There’s something quietly powerful about singing alongside other people. Music is known to support emotional wellbeing, and singing in a group brings breath, sound and attention together in a shared space. Shared voices and shared rhythm can create a sense of connection and ease, even when life feels busy or full.

In this episode, Dr Lee David speaks with Glen Harvey – musician and long-standing choir leader with Rock Choir – about what he has observed over many years of bringing people together to sing, and why community choirs often become meaningful spaces for wellbeing and connection.

They explore how singing supports both body and mind through breath, posture and movement, and how it can help people feel more present and settled without needing to analyse or fix anything. Glen shares why people from very different backgrounds are drawn to choir, and how a sense of belonging often develops naturally when the focus is on the shared experience rather than performance.

The conversation also touches on the thoughts that can sometimes hold people back, such as self-criticism or worry about getting things wrong, and how community singing gently shifts attention away from judgement and towards being in the moment together.

Highlights & Key Moments

00:00 Singing as a shared experience
02:08 Glen’s journey into choir leading
03:49 Why singing together feels different from singing alone
05:16 Stress, breath and the physical effects of singing
08:04 Posture, breathing and confidence
10:22 Thoughts that can hold people back from singing
13:10 Letting go of perfection in performance
18:40 The Choice Pause – settling with sound
22:13 Attention, anxiety and staying present
26:03 Music as a way of quietening a busy mind
27:00 Why people come to choir
29:37 Inclusivity, kindness and feeling safe in groups
33:21 A simple music-based takeaway

About the Guest

Glen Harvey is a versatile musician and choir leader with advanced skills as a vocalist, pianist and guitarist. He trained at the Academy of Contemporary Music and first became known as a semi-finalist on Pop Idol in 2003. He's been leading Rock Choirs for over 16 years, spreading harmonies and laughter across Hampshire, Berkshire, Northern Ireland and soon the Republic of Ireland. 

A master of turning strangers into friends and choirs into families, he’s sung everywhere from Abbey Road to Wembley, for audiences of up to 20,000 people, from royalty to George Clooney. At home in Farnham with his wife Lisa and their three children, Glen swaps his microphone for gardening gloves, gym gear or a dinner menu. Whether on stage or in the garden, he’s all about growing joy – one song, one laugh, one memory at a time.

Connect with Glen: Instagram @glenharveymusic

Find out more about Rock Choir via their website

About the host

Dr Lee David is a GP, CBT therapist and author specialising in mental health and wellbeing. Lee has written many books on CBT, mindfulness and teen wellbeing, and speaks regularly at conferences and in the media. Away from work she enjoys running, hiking, singing in a choir and spending time outdoors with her family. You can find Lee through her website and on Instagram, TikTok (@dr.lee.david), Facebook and LinkedIn.  You can find more about her books, wellbeing courses and therapy here:  https://linktr.ee/dr.lee.david 

Transcript

Glen Harvey (00:00)
it's about focusing on something for you for that period of time. I just want every member of the choir to just lose themselves in themselves and in whatever it is we're learning in that week.  
it's that feeling of togetherness. the impact of everybody making their individual parts come together as one.
Unity is like the dream for me.
That feeling of bringing everybody together, singing something and the end result gives you this feeling of pride. And I love that. I'm here for that all day, day.

Lee (00:39)
Welcome to the Choice Space Podcast. I'm Dr Lee David, GP, CBT therapist and author.  Today we're looking at how music, and especially singing with other people, can support our mental health in real and practical ways.
Music has a remarkable effect on how we feel.
A powerful song can lift our mood, settle worry or anxiety and help express emotions like grief or heartbreak, when words may be hard to find.

And when people sing together something even more powerful happens.

community choirs offer spaces where anyone, including people with little experience or background can take a first step into connection through music.

they can reduce isolation, bring in moments of fun and joy, and support people through life's challenges, offering safety, belonging and a shared sense of being part of something that's bigger than ourselves.

Today I'm joined by Glen Harvey, a musician and choir leader with rock choir.
Glen brings warmth, humour and many years of helping people find their voice, grow in confidence. and experience the emotional and social benefits of singing together.

Glen, welcome. Could you start by introducing yourself? And sharing what first drew you to your work as a musician and a choir leader.

Glen Harvey (02:08)
Well, firstly, thanks for having show, Lee. I really appreciate it. I have been a musician my whole career and I fell into the role. I was going to be a school teacher I came across this opportunity with Rock Choir who were very much in their infancy when I came on board 17 years ago. here I am, many moons later, still loving it. I'm more involved in the company than ever before, as is my wife. My wife is the head of operations for Rock Choir as well. So it's something we're very passionate about. And I just love running choirs and I love what it brings out in individuals, but also in that kind of community feel. 

It's a funny world we live in and everybody feels more, I guess, judged than ever yet in a room where people come together to sing in a choir, you've got people of all different backgrounds and beliefs, and It doesn't matter what you earn, what you do, what your gender is. Like everybody's just as one. We're there for the same purpose, which is to sing and to build a community and to learn a new skill and just do something for you, which in the modern age is with work and families and all the rest of it. It's really hard to just find a little bit of time for yourself. But it's the best thing. Singing is just such a great thing in a choir.

Lee (03:20)
I completely agree, Glen There's something about singing together that really does create that sense of connection. And it's amazing how it helps people feel better, even when we've had a long day at work, when we're stressed, when we've been rushing to get to choir. And it's about the music. And I think it's also about that shared experience I think that sense of community is just so powerful.

So what do you think helps people feel such a sense of belonging and connection when they sing together in a choir?

Glen Harvey (03:49)
I've always had that that it's something bigger than just people singing in a room, which fundamentally, that's all it is. But it feels much more than that.

and music is one of those things that it does bring still and actually I see it week on week where there's an evening of people rushing in, they've just managed to get their kids to their clubs or get dinner on the table, get in from a hard day's work, they've walked the dog, they've done whatever's on their list of busy life

And sometimes people go, don't know if I can be bothered tonight. And I get that because life is hard. sometimes when you get in from a busy day, you just want to sit on the sofa just if you force yourself to get out and come and you sing, you always leave feeling much better than you came in.

Lee (04:27)
I completely agree, Glen I mean, that feeling of walking in stressed, but feeling better, it's such a testament to the power of singing. it's amazing how that can help us let go of some of the stresses and those pressures that we carry throughout the day. And I don't think it is just about the music. It's also something about being present in that moment.

When we sing, we slow down a little bit, we get out of our heads, we stop focusing on our to-do lists, on our worries, all those thoughts we have that are whirling around about busy day-to-day life. So it can be a way of pressing pause on all that and then just being present, focused on the music.

Are there any ways that music can people cope a bit better with some of those stresses that we all face in our daily lives?

Glen Harvey (05:16)
When you sing, the stress hormone gets reduced. So first and foremost, that's a gift, right? And readily available and it is free. You can do it in choir, but equally, just singing is really good for that. listening to music can reduce stress levels, certainly by singing or playing an instrument is also proven to reduce that. powers your voice is your breath. And again, so much on breath control and breath work, right? It goes through lots of different forms of art and through yoga and meditation.

a big part of that is your breath control. Certainly with the emotional balance where you've got the lyrical things coming in and you're drawing comparatives in your life and all that sort of stuff and then you're able to relate. And if you're in a place where you slow your breath down and you've got some long phrases, it's just absolutely brilliant. all the different things come out when you sing like endorphins, serotonin, dopamine, all of those things come flooding out of your body when you sing. 

Lee (06:09)
Yes, I completely agree. Breath control is so important when it comes to managing stress. And, you know, when we exhale slowly, when we do that really long breath out, which we would often do if we're singing a long phrase in a song, it does stimulate the body's calm and soothe system. So it makes us feel more settled, more grounded. It lets out that physical, that mental tension. And so that is something we'd often use in therapy as well.

It's amazing that something so simple can be so powerful, but our breath is something we can tap into at any time. always have our breath to come back to for a sense of stability if life is getting stressful.

Glen Harvey (06:49)
then, as you say, increasing that social connection, can combat social isolation. It's building friendships and actually something I've loved being part of rock choir is watching friendships formed by you just come in and you sit next to this person and one day you get chatting and then you find out you've got some common ground and actually sometimes no common ground your lives couldn't be further apart but you both found yourself through singing and just find that little social release. That's a big deal. That's a really nice thing out of just singing in a room with some essentially often what starts as strangers.

And I suppose it's also that creative outlet,  music is a great one for that. you get this feeling you're learning some complicated harmony lines. You're learning some counter melodies. You're trying to just memorize a bunch of words Maybe to a song that it turns out you've been singing wrong for the last 20 years

And then you do that with maybe a sway and a click, because quite often in different choirs there might be some movement. And it gets creative juices flowing. then that also really stimulates a different feeling within.

Lee (07:48)
And it seems like some of these benefits of singing... come through the physical process itself, through how singing affects our body. is that something that you focus especially to help members feel more confident or more relaxed?

Glen Harvey (08:04)
I'm teaching singing, I go through three points, First is posture, because the way you hold yourself is quite important when it comes to singing in regards to just supporting the breath and then obviously into the vocal cords to make a sound. So firstly, good posture, strengthening your posture is no bad thing, especially in the modern age where lots of people are sat down slumping all day. When you sing, it's a great way to pull that up.

Obviously respiratory strength is a really important thing. We touched on breath a little bit earlier, but again, just deep control breathing is so good. It engages your core, gets your diaphragm working and all the different muscles around it. And it's a really great way to just work on breathing.

And actually there's one thing that did want to look up Lee, is the brain forming new connections,

So the way that it deals with memory, music, and I guess just not even singing, but just listening to songs. That's why certain songs trigger certain emotions. a song will take you back to beautiful time in your life, a happy time in your life. But it trigger memories not so pleasant times as well. And it's amazing how the brain up with all of those different things. it's fascinating the power of song singing and what it can do to the whole body and brain.

Lee (09:14)
Yeah, I really like that reminder about neuroplasticity because it is amazing how our brains can keep changing, growing and adapting. It's really an incredible power to keep developing through life and all ages, you know.

And I think music is especially good for encouraging that neuroplasticity, that brain development, because music doesn't just sit in one part of the brain, it cuts across lots of different systems. It involves memory, attention, movement, and we're doing them all at the same time. So when we're singing or engaging with music, we're not just doing that one thing. We're making connections right across all different parts of the brain.

And that kind of joined up activity encourages flexibility, learning and those connections between different parts of the brain, And that is very important for our brain health as we age to

keep brains developing right across all different stages of life. so we've talked about lots of the ways that singing is good for us. What are some of the things that you think might sometimes get in the way of people getting more involved with singing in different ways?

Glen Harvey (10:22)
certainly in the world of community choirs is lots of people don't come because they think they'll be laughed at because they haven't got a voice like Aretha Franklin or Tina Turner, but that doesn't matter because when you sing in a community group, nobody's actually focusing in on just you. the amount of people that don't ever even turn up for a taster session to try out because they're so nervous everybody will look at them and go, ⁓ gosh, look at that person, they can't quite sing. But that couldn't be further away from any choir experience that anyone should have.

The world of choir is welcoming and everybody is invited to be a part of it. And whether you read music or not, whether you know your vocal range or not, doesn't matter. Because actually it's just in the moment, it's about focusing on something for you for that period of time. I just want every member of the choir to just lose themselves in whatever it is we're learning in that week. And then when we sing it and we perform a song, be it at the end of a rehearsal, be it for a trip to a recording studio or a performance, be it to a thousand people or two men and a whippet, the outcome in that moment is not, I sung a wrong note or oh, I did this or did that. It's actually collectively, we did this.

And we did that. And that is where your community spirit comes out because it's that feeling of togetherness. at the end of an event or a song, everybody will go, wow, especially when you're able to actually hear the impact of everybody making their individual parts come together as one.

Unity is like the dream for me. That's the thing I love. As I said earlier, I referenced about all the different types of people that come to choir. and you'll have lawyer, who's stood next to someone who a school teacher and then next to them there'll be a librarian, next to them there's someone just a stay at

But yet they come together because they're just joyously enjoying this mutual thing and they're trying to accomplish feeling of bringing everybody together, singing something and the end result gives you this feeling of pride. And I love that. I'm here for that all day, every day. Hence why I'm still doing the job after nearly 18 years.

Lee (12:19)
I really love that and there's something so inspiring about being part of that kind of shared experience. I think for a lot of people though we can sometimes be our own worst critics, we maybe worry that we're being judged, we give ourselves a hard time, we tell ourselves we're going to get it wrong or feel embarrassed and if we do bring that to choir it can just take the joy out of it and that's not just about choirs, performance anxiety can affect musicians at all levels and really anyone doing something in front of other people.

I think it's that fear of not being well received or making mistakes, even though in reality mistakes are just part of being human. And I wondered how you think about that? How do you help people hold that balance between wanting things to go well, having a pride in how they show up at choir and high standards enjoying the performance, but without tipping into being too self-critical or fearful?

Glen Harvey (13:10)
I think of those things are great levelers. they're part of life. As you say, we all make mistakes. I also believe that perfection is actually a terrible word because it doesn't exist. And I think those that strive for perfection usually fail and feel disappointed because you're searching for something that can't ever really happen. We live in a world where that is something that's personified out there

But I struggle with it because I struggle to see people who I know, ordinarily life isn't quite as amazing as they sometimes the world of social media. I think because everything from body image to career and stuff out there, everything is seemingly perfect.

And yet people watching that are going, well, I'm not perfect, so what do need to change? And again, going back to the world of community choirs, people get anxiety, people get nervous about performances, people worry about if they're gonna let the team down because they haven't learned the song perfectly or

⁓ people start questioning, will I be able to hit those notes for the upcoming performance this weekend? I think a little bit of anxiety is a good thing because if you have a small amount, you can control it, you can channel it, you can overcome it. And what you get is this rush when you do it.

like going on a roller coaster, right? Lots of people, that thought is a terrifying thing. I wouldn't want to do it. And then you're in the queue and you're waiting and you're waiting and your brain's going, let's turn around. Let's not do it. But normally when you push yourself through and you overcome it, it's amazing because a small amount of anxiety, you turn into a positive thing. You'll get a bigger rush.

of endorphins, serotonin, you'll feel alive and you'll be talking about it for days and weeks to anybody that wants to listen. For me as a performer, somebody who's sung lots of times to lots of different people, have I had a perfect career in the sense that have I got everything right forever? Nope. I've muddled words up for people's precious first dances. I've...  sung on stage and my voice has slipped and the notes come out in a pretty embarrassing way in front of lots of people. I've been through all of those things, equally as a choir leader conducting. There's been moments where I've led 150 people into a chorus where it's another verse. I've done all of those things and I think sometimes you have to make a certain number of mistakes and errors to realise you are only human. You can only prepare as much as you can but sometimes the brain briefly leaves you and you suddenly forget where you are in a moment.

That's normal. Those little moments happen to everyone, but it's knowing that it won't shape you forever.  
nobody normally even notices and I always make this sort of comment at choir where we're talking about if you go wrong the audience don't know what's right or wrong a lot of the time I always say to my choir members you know don't pull a funny face don't draw attention to yourself because you're the only one normally that noticed and

Lee (15:47)
Yes, letting go of perfection is such an important starting point because really, as you say, it doesn't exist. So we're aiming for something that can't really be reached. So we're just setting up to feel disappointed. I was listening to some actors talking about creativity recently and how they might perform the same scene many times on the stage.

And then one day they might just do it slightly differently because their body or their attention shifted in that moment. And it just felt right to do it that way. And I think that's the point really is we're not machines, we're human. We're not like photocopy machine where you press a button and the same thing happens every single time. I think that humanity is what often makes music or a performance really lovely to listen to. brings that...

subtle quality that you can't quite put your finger on it I think it's maybe because the audience can hear that emotion, that they hear the feeling and the fact that it isn't static can bring something really special so I don't think it would be better if every performance was completely regimented if it was completely fixed or the same every time I think it could really lose something very special and important

Glen Harvey (16:53)
I 100 % think that's true because actually, think of some of your favorite live performances, maybe that were famed big artists on stage to however many people, there is always a mistake. There is always in like one of the best guitar solos for me of a live performance, there's a couple of wrong notes on the guitar solo.

but that doesn't matter, it's still beautiful and I love it because you feel the raw emotion in that moment. Maybe that's why his finger slipped to the wrong note, but who knows, who cares? It doesn't really matter. I think of some of the best duets and things that have gone out there into the world, there's always a little faux pas. Again, does it matter? No, they've still been listened to by millions of people. And I think sometimes makes it more relatable. And that's the other thing, because as you say, we're not machines. We are human,  very much the way we're built. are made to rise, but we're made to fall and errors happen. it's not about how you fall down, it's about how you get up, right? 
And for everybody that's going to say, wow, I love your song, I love your voice, I love whatever, there's going to be someone else that doesn't. But then that's life, right? You can't please all the people. all the time. 

Again, even in choir we have this where I say, right, here's the next song we're learning and for everybody goes, my gosh, that's my favourite song in the whole wide world. Somebody else goes, ⁓ I hate that song. It's the worst song. Why'd you pick that? But that's the beautiful thing about art and all of its different forms, right? My favourite movie won't be yours. Your favourite book won't be mine. But that's okay. We can agree to disagree. And sometimes you can be surprised because I find this in choir as well. Sometimes a song that you're thinking, I'm not going to enjoy that. But the arrangement is better than you think.

And sometimes a song you're really excited about doesn't quite hit how you were hoping, you know? And again, that's just the wonderful power of music, isn't it?

Lee (18:40)
This is the choice pause, a short two to three minute tool you'll hear in every episode. Each time with something different to help you pause, notice and choose your next step. Today's pause is settling with sound.

Start by taking a slow breath in and a longer breath out. Let your shoulders drop, soften your jaw and allow your body to settle where it is.

If it feels comfortable, take another gentle breath in just let a simple sound leave your body as you breathe out. It might be a quiet hum, a soft sigh or whatever comes naturally. There's no right way to do this. Notice the vibration more than the sound itself.

Where can you feel that? Is it in your chest, in your throat or neck? Maybe place a hand over the area that you can feel the sound and just repeat one more time to just notice the physical vibration as we make a gentle sound.

Just try this one or two times more, letting your breath and the sound meet each other naturally.

Many people find that gentle exhale with a sigh or a hum can steady the mind and bring a sense of ease and stability.

If you'd like to, can come back to this exercise later on with a piece of music that feels familiar or soothing, matching one or two gentle notes as you breathe out slowly. It doesn't have to be singing. It's about connection with your breath rather than performance.

Now take one final breath, let it go slowly and carry that sense of space with you into whatever comes next in your day.

Lee (20:31)
Something I often talk about with people who might experience social or performance anxiety is to think about where their attention is focused. So a lot of the time we can get really caught up in our worries. We're in our own heads. We're thinking about how am I looking? Did I get that wrong? What's that person thinking about me? So our attention shifts outwards and we start to see ourselves through other people's eyes. We're imagining what they might be thinking rather than staying within ourselves focusing on what we're doing and continually thinking about what others are thinking about us could be really distracting. I sometimes describe it like trying to drive while someone's constantly tapping on the shoulder saying, I think you did that wrong. I don't like the way you're driving. Stay to left. and even if that person means well, it really does make it just harder to focus on the road. 

The aim isn't to drive perfectly because I don't think there's any such thing. We've already talked about there's no such thing as perfection. There's no perfect driver. So it's just about bringing our attention back to driving the car and bringing our attention back from the outside and into that here and now. And you can use your five senses to do that. So I might ask people to think about what they can see, maybe some colours around them, what they can hear. So it might be hearing that music or even hearing your own breath.

as you exhale and perhaps something that you can touch so you might notice your feet on the floor, wriggle your toes, let your shoulders drop and feel a bit heavier or slow breath and then we come back to okay I'm here, I'm singing, I'm connecting with the music and the letting go a little bit of that self judgment so that we can be a little bit more present and just more connected to the moment.

Glen Harvey (22:13)
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think you hit the nail on the head when you just said, you can't change other people, right? So the truth is, there's always going to be someone that's going to try and tell you how to drive better. What you've got to do is just ignore that person so you can drive the best that you can drive. And that's true for, I suppose, anything really. it's working out how to, just get in the zone in that moment and think to yourself, why am I doing it? Why am I here?

when you're doing something for yourself, you're trying to get a new skill. And, you know, certainly when it comes to music, learning an instrument, which I do also believe you're never too old to start. get people will often say, always wish I played the piano, but I'm too old to start. You're never too old to start. It's harder because your brain isn't quite as spongy as it was when you were, you know, a teenager.

it might take longer, but the reward, I think, is bigger because you have that feeling of accomplishment much greater than when you're a child, you know. You don't realize quite what you're doing when you're nine years old and you're learning Spanish or you're learning to play the guitar. 

and again, it's the thing I love about community choirs, nobody's there because they have to be there, they're because they want to be. which through the years, I've heard so many different reasons.

But just knowing that everybody's there because they want to sing, nothing more. I just want to sing. It's great.

Lee (23:29)
Definitely. I was just reflecting on how when you're nine, you're learning all the time. Almost everything feels new. There's so much to discover and your brain is constantly stretching and adapting. And I think as we get older, we need a bit of that again. It's quite easy to fall into doing the same things in the same ways because we've already learned so much. We know how to live our lives and we can get into a bit of a routine. So we stop exploring and discovering new things. And I think we can lose something quite important if that happens.

It's so lovely to re-find that sense of curiosity, maybe trying things out, learning just because it's interesting rather than because we're trying to particularly achieve a goal. And I think that's a big part of how learning when we're younger and we sort of lose that as we get older, but it's what keeps learning fun. And I do think going back to brain health, keeps our brains...developing, neuroplasticity coming and helps keep our brains healthy at all ages.

Glen Harvey (24:25)
What music does going back to music, when there's a physical movement, when there is an outward sound, and if you can link those two things whilst the brain is thinking at the same point, not only of those two things, but the words, the notes that I'm going to click and sway, or whatever it might be, your brain links to it it's able to hold it there for longer.

Lee (24:44)
think that really highlights how multi-dimensional music is. It's not just about words or melody, it's really woven throughout our memory, through the movement, through our breath, through the emotions.

that really matters because when we're under stress or pressure so much of that lives in our body we get tense we hunch our shoulders our breathing changes we don't even notice and singing will naturally bring some of that back into balance through our posture through breath and the sound and we don't consciously have to try and fix anything

And this isn't about getting rid of difficult emotions. It's more about making room for them. And that really helps because our brains can be really quite noisy places. There's lots of thoughts, emotions, they're all going on at the same time. And so that multi-layered quality of music seems to help us somehow make space for all that, and that can help us stay a bit more connected in the moment, as well as creating a bit more space for some positive emotions like joy, contentment and connection with those people around us.

Glen Harvey (25:46)
My brain is very noisy all of the time with all of the things. And yeah, it's important to try and every now and again have a little, say, reorganization. out how to compartmentalize some of those busier files in my brain, you know, because you're right,

Lee (25:49)
Hahaha

Glen Harvey (26:03)
Music is a great way, I find, to heal and deal and process certain things. But I think in modern living, because it is so busy and so full on all the time, I've certainly, where I'm at in life with three children between the ages of 12 and three, both working parents and a lot of antisocial hours, it's really noisy up there sometimes. And actually, the only time it genuinely quietens down is when I'm

not even listening to music anymore. tend to listen to this. listen to a lot of podcasts when I'm fully let go and I've got the backing track on or I'm playing piano or guitar or I'm with my band and I am going hell for leather with my voice, full out, all the feels, all the emotions. AND that's sort of the only way I think sometimes you get a bit of five minutes of peace and quiet.

Lee (26:49)
Absolutely, You've mentioned that people come to choir for lots of different reasons. What are some of the things that people have shared with you about why they join, why they come along and why it feels so important to them?

Glen Harvey (27:00)
The most common one probably is, I want to do something for me. I've given my life to work, to my children, to my parents, to whatever it is. They've devoted their time and energy and they can't remember the last time they did something for themselves. And they come because they've always liked singing. They've sung in the car, they've sung in the shower. They thought maybe it's time I join a choir

I want to have a new release for me. That's a common one. Another one is confidence. Quite a lot of people feel that they haven't got the confidence to be in a choir, sing, to perform, to be almost a centre of attention. it's that feeling of I just want to have this feeling of accomplishment and

work on my confidence and so it seems like maybe if I sing in a choir maybe that might help. I've heard singing's good for you, can I give it a whirl? One is friendship, You quite often get people where perhaps their partner's passed away and they've been a bit sort of solitary for a while and choir is brilliant for that. It's so good for that. And the amount of people that have made friends for life, and maybe they didn't think they'd have such a social network. 

The other one is overcoming a horrible experience with someone near and dear, like a health problem maybe cancer or something like that, or often themselves. And it's not I've been through this horrible journey for weeks, months, years, and I need to just start to my head and become a new version of again, people know music's really good for that. And it's also it's being around lots of people, but nobody knows who you are. And that goes back to, I guess, one of my first points, which is people come into the room and they don't know anything about anybody. And actually, sometimes that's really nice, because in modern age, everybody knows everything about everyone.

but one of the great things about when you come to a community group like Rock Choir, don't have to be anybody other than just you in that moment and you can give people what you want to give them. But in that just there to sing and have a good time.

Lee (28:52)
I love that and I've also been thinking about the role of inclusivity and creating that sense of support and safety in a choir. You mentioned earlier that choirs can bring people together from all sorts of backgrounds which is amazing and you never really know what the person sat next to you, what they're going through, maybe they're grieving, maybe they're dealing with something personal.

and not everyone is ready to share And actually, as we said, part of the joy of choir is just being able to put those things aside for a little while and just come and focus on the music. So from your experience, what do you think helps to create that sense of inclusivity where everyone feels accepted for who they are, where we can all just let go of worrying about how we're being seen by others and just focus on being present and enjoying the music?

Glen Harvey (29:37)
firstly I'm quite lucky because a lot of the members the choir are that anyway. which is great. I think the other is just having a bit of a mantra in life, which is that nobody wants to see me fail.

And certainly in a choir setting, everybody just wants to see you do okay. And I've seen this over the years where people have tripped over, where people have broken down because moments have happened and it's like they want to pick them up and make them okay. And that's just lovely. You know, that's what I'm here for that community feel people coming together. And I like And I try to what I've learned from choir, I try to replicate in rest of my world now where I can. I want more of that. I want people to just be able to and do nice things, you know.

Lee (30:17)
love that it's like a random acts of kindness and I really do think they can make a big difference. 

And it's about bringing that into our everyday life, being kind to the people who are around us. Like you said, I think it's often in those small moments, that simple act of someone offering you a smile, of just saying, you OK?

just radiating that sense of acceptance of we're here together, in this together, we're gonna support each other, we find that strength through everyone being on the same team and we don't need to feel judged, this is a really safe space. And I think it's just really leaning into that idea where we can all be

that strong, supportive group and we hold each other up. So if any of us has a wobble, then the person next to us can be the one that will exactly as you said, be the one that will rush forward and just catch us. If we have a bit of a trip, then there's gonna be somebody there. And I think it always feels safer if you know people around you are bring that sense of care around how we approach everything in life.

You know, just a small smile from somebody can make such a difference they're going through something difficult. And I don't think we can underestimate the power of these really small gestures.

Lee (31:26)
and I think if we then combine that sense of support and care from our community, from the people around us, with all the benefits of music and singing, then it just feels like a really powerful combination for wellbeing, which is why really it's so great to come to a choir and how it does help us with our emotions so much.
Sometimes when we are experiencing some of those difficulties ourselves, maybe we do have a sense of grief or there's some challenge in life, then music just does give that way to process them in a supportive place. And I think that music can sometimes help us to recognise what it is that's going on and maybe make sense of those emotions that are coming up.

I know that certain songs have really triggered emotion in me. linked to experiences I've had of grief, of bereavement, of losing my mum, for example. And music can sometimes help us make sense of these really complicated experiences.

that sometimes are just really difficult to put in words. And doing surrounded by other people who perhaps get it, other people who we know are going through their own things, even though we don't know what they are. I think it really helps to find that sense of shared common humanity where we can support each other without necessarily needing to know all the details And I think that's so important.

Glen Harvey (32:39)
it's what brings those moments out in us, you know? And I think you don't always know when those feelings are gonna hit you. And you don't always know how to, I guess, of gently coax these feelings and emotions. But music seems to do the trick, I must say. More than most things. It does seem to bring out all sorts of...
weird and wonderful feelings for people.

Lee (33:03)
So to wrap up, always do a choice space takeaway and that is just one or two small steps that people can try to support their wellbeing. Glen if we're thinking about music today, what are some tiny things that people could do this week that might give them a lift or help them manage some difficult feelings through music?

Glen Harvey (33:21)
I would start to some music. But don't just listen to music. Listen to the music.

Listen to a song that you already know and you listen to a lot and you sing along to. But listen deeper than usual. Listen to what the strings are doing. Listen to what the guitar is doing. Listen to the backing vocals, not just the key points, which is often the lead line of the vocals, you know?

listen to what else is going on in and around that and why and what about it that makes you feel the way you do because music is simple but it's also complex and there's lots of layers to it and a bit like in a community choir it's not about the one person it's about that collective thing and I think something that makes me fall in love with music again and again and again songs that I have listened to over and over I'm a big fan of Stevie Wonder I love Jeff Buckley. I love the Foo Fighters. I like the Beatles. I've got an eclectic musical taste and there are some songs that I have listened to over and over, but I can fall in love with them again and again because there's different bits of it that make me feel just different when I listen to them. And I suppose the other thing is listen to what is in that song that makes you feel the way you are in that moment. So

I can listen to some songs and I will just cry, regardless. It will just, it will happen. And there are other songs where I can smile ear to ear because it takes me back to a sweet moment. is that just because that was a song that was played on that special day or is it because there's a poignant moment in that song that hits you? It might be just, the drums do a certain thing and that guitar solo comes in or those little vocal ad-libs at the end. That's what gets me. And it's working out what those are and embracing it because that's a great thing because the other thing is just be bold and sing along more don't be worried even in the car, right? cruising along or worse still, You're in a traffic jam. You're frustrated. You're running late.

You can't change that. You're not going to get through this jam any quicker. There's people all around you. Turn the music up. Sing along like nobody's watching. And even if they are and you pull some funny faces while you're doing it, no one cares. You won't see the car on your left or the car on your right ever again. Go for it. Because again, if you can sing and you can pull some funny faces, full voice in the car like nobody's watching, but you're in a traffic jam, then
anything after that I reckon is possible.

Lee (35:35)
That's amazing. I think I'd add when you're singing, maybe find a quiet place and just add some movement. We talked earlier about how movement anchors music in our whole bodies. And I'm a big believer in the power of movement for wellbeing. And there's plenty of evidence showing how much physical movement benefits both our mental and our physical health.

So I'd encourage people to move, whether it's dancing, stretching, even just gentle swaying. That movement helps us process and connect more deeply to the music. And I also really like your idea of paying attention to what emotions come up. Sometimes a song can help us listen to ourselves and notice what we're feeling, even when we don't really have those words for it. Music can express something important and it might make that emotion a bit more accessible or safer somehow because we can connect it to the song but it still allows us to release some of the things we might otherwise struggle to say in other ways

Glen Harvey (36:29)
agree if you're not doing it already get in on some music be an instrument if you're playing guitar drums piano you're moving your body is moving as well as you're putting into what it is you're doing and if you're gonna sing come and join a choir because honestly you won't be disappointed if you can come and sing with us you'll have you singing we'll have you moving we'll work on your posture and your breathing whilst hopefully having a really great time and having this great feeling of community and having a sense of achievement and belonging. It ticks a lot of boxes, Lee.

Lee (36:58)
Honestly, hand on heart, coming to choir is one of the highlights of my week. Every single week without fail, to choir is one of my favourite moments. There's just something so uplifting about it and it genuinely does bring some joy into my week. It's really amazing. So if anyone is thinking about it, I would absolutely encourage you to give it a try, if it feels right for you, of course, but it can be a truly fabulous experience.

and I'm so glad I pushed past that initial fear like we talked about previously wondering about my voice, whether I could fit in. didn't know anyone at the start, but it has turned out to be such a rewarding experience. 

So Glen how can people get involved with Rock Choir if they're interested?

Glen Harvey (37:40)
simply just go on our website in your the front page of the website and it will show you the 10 nearest choirs to you and the days and times in which they run and then go along for a free taster session to try it out and see if it's for you. There are lots of different choirs and other musical groups of course if there isn't one close to you but

I think there's like 360 different choirs across the UK now so there should be one within a short distance from your home.

Lee (38:09)
Thanks for listening to the Choice Space podcast. I hope this conversation has offered a little more space to pause, breathe and find your own way forwards. linked all the ways you can connect with Glen and with Rock Choir in the show notes.

If today's episode has been helpful, please download, follow and share with someone else who might find this space helpful as well.

I'd love to have you with me for the next episode. Until then, take care and keep making space for what matters most. 

This episode was edited by Elle Dixon.