Rethinking Our Relationship With Alcohol

Alcohol is woven into many people’s daily lives as a way to unwind, connect or mark the end of the day. For some, it can also become a way of managing difficult emotions, stress or disconnection, often without feeling like a “problem” in the traditional sense.

In this episode, Dr Lee David speaks with Navneet Singh – psychotherapist and addiction specialist – about how people develop relationships with alcohol and why those relationships can be hard to change, even when drinking starts to feel unhelpful.

They explore what alcohol offers emotionally and socially, and how it can act as a short-term way of regulating feelings such as overwhelm, shame or boredom. Navneet describes how drinking patterns are often shaped by earlier experiences, trauma, identity and the need for connection.

The conversation also looks at why knowledge alone is rarely enough to create change, and how boredom, disconnection and loss can increase the pull towards alcohol. Together, they reflect on the role of compassion, curiosity and supportive relationships in creating more choice and flexibility around drinking.

This is a thoughtful discussion about understanding what alcohol does for us, noticing patterns gently and finding alternative ways to meet underlying needs.

Key moments

 00:00 Exploring our drinking patterns
 02:13 How alcohol fits into culture and social interaction
 04:50 Language, shame and why labels can get in the way
 07:18 Alcohol as pleasure, avoidance and emotional regulation
 12:46 Trauma, shame and alcohol as an unhealthy medicine
 16:29 Why change is hard and often slow
 17:56 Boredom, disconnection and the pull towards alcohol
 23:48 Choice Pause – creating space around urges
 27:09 Why support and community are so important
 40:12 Choice Space Takeaway – inquiry, connection and small steps 

About the guest

Navneet Singh is a psychotherapist, group facilitator and addictions specialist. He works with NHS Practitioner Health and in private practice, bringing an integrative approach shaped by clinical experience, leadership roles and long-term personal recovery.

 His earlier career in hospitality and involvement in establishing a residential rehabilitation programme in India inform his understanding of high-pressure environments and culturally sensitive care. He holds an MSc in Addictions from King’s College London, is a registered member of UKCP, BACP and Addiction Professionals, and works with clients in English, Hindi and Punjabi. 

You can contact Navneet via his websites:

 www.addictionsrecovery.co.uk
www.navsinghpsychotherapy.com

About the host

Dr Lee David is a GP, CBT therapist and author specialising in mental health and wellbeing. Lee has written many books on CBT, mindfulness and teen wellbeing, and speaks regularly at conferences and in the media. Away from work she enjoys running, hiking, singing in a choir and spending time outdoors with her family. You can find Lee through her website and on Instagram, TikTok (@dr.lee.david), Facebook and LinkedIn.  You can find more about her books, wellbeing courses and therapy here:  https://linktr.ee/dr.lee.david 

Transcript

Navneet Singh (00:01)
ask ourselves more direct questions, looking at patterns. Am I drinking every day? Do I drink because I want to not feel something? Am I rewarding myself with a drink?

Do I find it difficult to stop after a certain amount of drinks? Do I tell myself I'll drink a certain amount and then I end up drinking more? with whatever reasons? DO I find myself wanting to stop my work day with a drink?

Just inquire gently. What is happening here? Each person will have a different thing -  I'm waking up at night. I don't have a restful sleep.

So as we start to inquire get some answers that say, I do need to rethink my drink.

Lee (00:40)
Welcome to the Choice Space podcast. I'm Dr Lee David, GP, CBT therapist and author. Today we're looking at how alcohol fits into many people's lives. For some, it may offer a way to unwind or connect socially. For others, it can mask difficult feelings or help mark a transition between different parts of the day. These patterns can feel very familiar.

and even helpful in the moment. Yet drinking at even moderate levels has been shown to have negative effects. Alcohol can disrupt our sleep, anxiety, lower mood, and reduce mental clarity the next day. It can put strain on our gut and liver, raise blood pressure, and even increase the cancer risk. These risks can be quite uncomfortable to hear.

especially when they don't match the way many of us grew up thinking about alcohol and how it's viewed socially. To discuss this today, joined by Navneet Singh, psychotherapist and addiction specialist. His work brings together clinical and lived experience and a compassionate, integrative approach to understanding how drinking habits take shape, how people can make thoughtful, meaningful shifts in their relationship with alcohol, and what small changes might start to create more space and more choice. Navneet, welcome. Could you start by telling us a little about your background and what drew you to thinking about how alcohol shapes people's lives?

Navneet Singh (02:13)
Well, thank you, Lee, for having me here. It's a pleasure to be here. what drew me to working in this field? ⁓ I'll start with the basic honest answer, which is my own problem with alcohol and substances. Interestingly, today I am 24 years in abstinence. So it's quite an interesting day to be here this chat, which wasn't planned, but we're here. it couldn't be a better day to have this conversation for me personally.

so it's personal experience that sort of brought me into it and then slowly transitioning into a professional sphere where particularly alcohol more substances because of gets missed. You know, there are so many factors and I'm sure we'll discuss that as we go along. though we look problem drinking, perhaps best understood as a spectrum, there are no two people who present with same problems. other than the sort of where it's a physical dependency, which again can be dealt with medical detoxes and interventions. Everybody else fits somewhere in the spectrum. So it's really interesting that

How do you meet people with the problem? How do they perceive it as a problem? Do they perceive it as a problem in the first place? Is it somebody else encouraging them? So a fascinating field as a professional and on a personal level. I guess, I sit somewhere on the spectrum now in abstinence, but IT IS I do this work.

Lee (03:32)
what a lovely day to have this conversation. It really does feel celebratory and hopefully quite inspiring for people because 24 years, that's a significant amount of time and effort taken. And is that something still that you would need to work at even now? is it something that becomes easier over over those years?

Navneet Singh (03:55)
So it's not an active engagement anymore. As drinking can become natural, which is what perhaps you are in the spectrum of addiction, the nature of someone with a problem is that they would want to drink. Recovery is similar. You almost have to make recovery a natural thing that you do. It's almost like driving a car where beyond the initial period, you know, do it in automation. So I'd say lifestyle choices, the life that I lead, the work that I do, it just makes it into a natural risk I think there comes a long-term abstinence and recovery where the word triggers doesn't sort of fit in, It's life - life challenges, life circumstances, upsets, joys, pleasures, any sort of emotional based things that can be an invitation to or temptation to perhaps drink. The selective memory that sort of looks at the positive aspects of drinking rather than the consequential rock bottom points perhaps

Lee (04:50)
just thinking about the language around alcohol, a lot of people I would work with who may have some challenges in their relationship with alcohol, but the idea of addiction feels very far away. which makes it harder to to sometimes recognise relationship has somehow become problematic. Is that something that you've become aware of as well?

Navneet Singh (05:11)
I think language and also our understanding of the word because no two people's the word addiction is similar. people will perceive IT WITH biases, they'll perceive it with judgment, they will perceive it with shame, all sorts of feelings that makes you want to that word. You've got dependency, the word that's used, you've got... the word spectrum, is something that I bring in, in the guidelines, it's perhaps used as a disorder, ⁓ alcohol use disorder. I think the important thing is not to give a label, but meet individuals where they are at, actually understand
the relationship with the substance, alcohol in this case, what does it do for them? one has to look at what it brings to us, before it sort of becomes a problem, it's obviously offered something.

whether that's social, emotional, psychological, so the biopsychosocial model recovery When we start to understand that better and the individual says, actually, somebody else might find it very easy to sit with sadness for another person, it might be really pathologized.

So you can't really compare, can't really go, well, actually, that person can cope with it, why can't you cope with it? It almost brings up shame or a comparative place where a person then will into hiding It complicates the problem. So I think language is extremely important, but also to understand that if we make it depersonalized, then that can also be a problem, where it becomes the other thing. say for instance, somebody goes, well, I'm okay. It's a disorder. 

A lot of times people will say, well, actually, you know, it's the Jekyll and Hyde thing where, it's like the devil on the shoulder or, it's an alter ego. Not realizing that those states actually are perhaps, using the Jungian language, the shadow aspects, but a shadow isn't not me. It's just something of me - risky, scary, shameful to bring up. 

So it's about getting in touch with people and what alcohol does for them and language, as you said, that can put people off because it's almost like I'm not an addict. An addict is this park bench drunk drinking out of a paper bag.

Lee (07:18)
Yeah, definitely. lots of stuff in Nav, which is really important. I think just coming back to what alcohol, why alcohol plays such a strong role, if we can start there, which is most people do drink alcohol, not everybody, but it's quite culturally normal. It's within our social, it's within society. People go out for a drink and there's...

something about it being a way to wind down, there's something about it being enjoyable. Now, whether or not it actually does that, it's the idea that it does it. Sometimes I think it's more this concept of, is an opportunity for me to relax. And so it's saying, it's sort of marking out territory of this is wind down. And so it might reflect a need to connect socially, which is very important. 

Or as you say, it might reflect discomfort around that emotion feels really overpowering. I'm just feeling overwhelmed. I just feel like I don't want to face it. So I'm going to numb out a bit. I'm just going to try and tune it out and alcohol can, it turns it down. I mean, I think we probably both agree it doesn't actually help us process it. 

And in many ways, what I have found is that when people tune it out with alcohol, it kind of rebounds. So, you know, overnight, the way I would talk to people about what happens in your brain overnight when you've been drinking is all the stresses of the day are just left unpackaged on the floor of your brain. know, in your wardrobe, you just throw all the clothes on the floor. And when you get up in the morning, there's just a big mess and a big pile in there. It's not been ordered. And so you wake up and it's like, ⁓ and so it feels, in fact, emotionally speaking, it then you're back into that melee. And so you're even more driven than to turn it down again, perhaps using alcohol as a cycle. So.

There's sort of two themes there, something about enjoyment and then something about turning down difficult emotions. What's your take on that?

Navneet Singh (09:09)
So I think I'll just go back a bit to what you said, which is quite important. One is A, what it does to us and B, the perception of what it does to us. lot of people often use the term, it's a habit. you know, when you go down to the point of sort of what do you mean when you say something's a habit? What does the word mean really? And how's that different from an addictive component?

Why would habit not be called addiction or dependence? Actually, it could have those one sort of leaks into another, and I think with mental health, there is no sort of clear bifurcation or binary aspect of what this is where it ends and this is where the other thing begins. So the perception and the reality is alcohol does relax people. in the initial state gives a sense of well-being. It's a full stop to the day for a lot of people, worked hard. It's a reward. It's a lifestyle statement of done well. as a cultural thing that, with my food, I'll pour a drink. could allow us to tap into some emotive states. It doesn't...create emotive states, it's a bridge to tap into them. But it's also a bridge that takes us away from certain emotive states. So it's about tapping into a feeling that I want to feel perhaps, or I hope I'll feel. But it's also about going into a place where I don't want to feel. So getting away from a discomfort, say for example.

 So the whole access then is pleasure, discomfort, that I might seek pleasure, but I also might want to get away from discomfort. And as you rightly say, that getting away from discomfort doesn't sort it. It certainly doesn't take care of the core issue. let's say, for example, I'm feeling sad, I don't want to feel it. I want to feel lighter, have a drink. It works. You know, it'll be a lie to say it But does it do then? It's the same bridge that I get away from sadness. And then when I wake up in the morning, I come back to sadness,

plus maybe guilt, maybe shame, maybe remorse, certainly physical tiredness. it compounds the problem And then one gets up goes to work, does what they do, you come back. So you've come back to a compounded state, which then is worse than what it might have been yesterday. So the increment starts to happen. I might drink more to get to the desired state and the progression thereon a point where actually

And this is where it becomes a big problem that the point A and B, the state I want to get away from and the state I want to get to actually sort of morph into one. So actually don't get away from any state. My feelings, I start to feel more so people then start to say sadder when they drink. It almost sort of helps us tap into the feeling that we initially trying to avoid. So it's a complex cycle of what plays out. 

But I think what you said about the discomfort and the pleasure part and the rewarding part, they play an essential part. And then of course there's the brain chemistry, there's the neural pathways, there's a whole set of signs that explains what goes on.

Lee (12:04)
 And actually, as you're talking, was just thinking about the idea that it really feels there's a lot around emotion, as in I'm either seeking out an emotional state that feels good, or I'm trying to avoid one that doesn't feel so good. 

So it's being quite driven by our emotions, which I think by definition means we can be a bit open to the vagaries of what's happened in the day emotions can go up and down for lots of different reasons and can sometimes, I think, lead us astray if we're making choices around, want to feel this way or I don't want to feel that way. We're often more likely to make these kind of choices like alcohol that can actually prove quite difficult.

Navneet Singh (12:46)
It certainly can, but then there are certain complex states Say for example, a person, adverse childhood experiences, So somebody's had some trauma that's not been dealt with. It's the shame injection that comes in where I don't feel good enough, it can show for...
accomplished people as imposter syndrome. It can show up as not being good enough. It can show in the form of appeasement, whole sort fawning state as well. it can show up in many different ways. 

so if it becomes not just an emotion, but something that's much deeper, part of the self identity, where their alcohol then works medicine, 
albeit a very unhealthy yet effective medicine, it's very hard to get people to say, well, actually don't drink. And they're like, but what do I do about the fact that I don't like me or I don't enjoy my own company or I struggle with boredom or, know, I need 
something to stimulate me. well and good to ask someone to not do something or do it in a certain way. But if you don't really invest in why they do it and what the suffering is or what the core pain is, then,
answers won't work it's very difficult to go, you're destroying your body. 

You should stop because they know they are. But imagine the state of a person that knowing that the nature is to survive, they're going against the nature and actually hurting their body. it's almost like what cancer cells do, they attack their own body. And I think addiction can work in a certain way where it's not the lack of knowledge, it's the lack of ability to tolerate or be with oneself or one's own feelings that becomes a problem.

Yeah, so that's sort of broadly something that requires time, effort, money, inclination, desire to make a change. And then unfortunately, this change, most people want to change when something isn't working. which is unfortunately, a lot of people that haven't lost much will struggle and will continue drinking much a destructive manner.

And in a way, if you've lost a lot, it can be an invitation to, not a guarantee to make those effective changes. Which is really sad when you look at it in the form of sort of the loss guides change, but it perhaps does in many ways.

Lee (14:56)
what I'm hearing there is there's a reason that alcohol has a stronger relationship in people's lives. And sometimes that due to prior trauma, for example, it may be due to experiences of shame. you mentioned aware that alcohol can be a way of coping with.

neurodivergence for some people. so there's lots of relationships where actually there's something really quite difficult underneath that perhaps hasn't been recognised or hasn't been addressed fully. And it's about recognising, is there something important here? this a signal that there's some part of me who's very vulnerable and who needs some care and who's actually almost asking to be looked after?

the way that they're speaking is through the urge to seek alcohol as a coping strategy. And then there's also quite a difficult idea, I think, that sometimes people are not ready to make changes. if people could just make a change, they would. People don't deliberately choose a harmful strategy. People would choose the least harm, I'm sure. And yet sometimes we don't.

And so it's looking is underlying that and actually making that choice? It's not just a question just going to change tomorrow. we need skills, we need support, we need a whole lot of things. And sometimes one of the things that encourages change is we may need to start to genuinely recognize the harm. And that might mean that we need to get to a point where that harm is really evident before we actually find the resources to be able to make that change.

Navneet Singh (16:29)
change is often born of dissatisfaction with what's playing in life. Something isn't working for me. Or change is born for a desire for evolution. Those people on the second part will probably be sitting on mountaintops, know, pun intended, and doing meditation and sort of finding their own higher selves. know, they wouldn't be the ones to come into therapy. 

Often people we meet, I'd imagine, I'm generalizing here, would be the ones are not happy. Nobody comes to therapy because, you know, let me just go hang out with a therapist or, you know, not a social club in that sense, but they'll come because they're suffering. So I think at some point, and even though they've come there, it still doesn't mean that it's going to be easy to allow someone into your world. You know, that's where the relational dimension comes. 

But then also one has to see, let's say, you know, working with somebody that's say single, for instance, but doesn't have the courage to date or has reached a place where they're not attuned with, the online dating systems or don't want to put themselves there. You're a very good companion. Alcohol, open your bottle in the evening. You don't need someone. 

For some people, Alcohol can be then a way somebody can be present, perhaps in an intimate environment when they otherwise wouldn't be able to tap into that So alcohol then also steps in in many ways. I was working with this person who that actually, the common ground between them and their partner was alcohol. That they finished work, they sat down and they drank. And that was the time they did that. And every time one of them decided back. the other didn't know what to do and it almost felt like their relationship was in a problem. Now to tell that person let's work on the relationship. I think it's an opportunity. They're like, no, it's too scary. I don't want to go down that route.

I think personality types will have an important part here. Not everybody that drinks will have a problem. A lot of people drink may be having some sort of a problem. culturally, guess where in Britain, certainly in the Western world where it's sort of more accepted to drink as a lifestyle, it becomes even harder because it's so strongly enmeshed in the social fabric. When you talk about not drinking, it's almost like, I mean, one of the things that people talk about a lot of the time is, what am gonna tell people I'm not drinking? And I was like, well, It's not yours to carry, it's not a shame that you're saying, I don't drink. But then the assumption is, they're gonna think I have a problem with drinking and something's wrong with me or how will I be present?

And then there's boredom, which is a massive, massive topic. And what does that actually mean itself? I remember in India, part of my was based ON learning to cope with boredom as a way to manage recovery, to understand what boredom meant, which is a big topic in its own Often the assumption is, something is boring. actually, you into the fabric of boredom, what does it really mean for the person? 

And the THE opposite of addiction is connection, which which means boredom is a state of disconnection, which means that a lot of the times when somebody is feeling bored, if they have a problem, they're closer to picking up a drink at that point in time. So when you hear stories of people relapsing, they're like, I don't know what happened. Everything was going fine. I was just bored. So perhaps if we change the word bored to I felt disconnected, I didn't feel like I belonged, I didn't feel I was sort of there. One understands that the word boredom is a little more than what's being said there.

Lee (19:44)
and that's new to me. The idea about boredom and disconnection having such a significant role around what might drive choices that may sometimes be challenging. I wonder if actually disconnection might be broader than obviously there's the idea about I'm connected to others. I wonder if it could also encompass I'm disconnected to my values, I'm disconnected to the things I care about, I'm disconnected from feeling a sense of meaning and purpose. And so it's somehow not being connected to all the things that I care about most. And that could be a broader view of what connection might actually mean

Navneet Singh (20:20)
Connection is work, social, a lot of life is about feeling connected and belonging being a part of something, in the world we live in where, there's a whole lot of othering happening based everything, colour, money, everything really. So, connection is a very, very big word because that's what alcohol does in that moment. It allows me to just that brief moment to feel connected. In that moment, it feels like there's an equilibrium.

Then of course it taps into the connection with also the unresolved area. unresolved issues from the past, unfinished business, whatever the phrase one used. But then there's another point which is even perhaps bigger, is the quality of connection. It's not just the volume,

It doesn't matter in numbers. What is my quality of presence? What am I feeling? Do And once we start to get to those areas,
we'll see that the healings becomes not just with my relationship with alcohol, but perhaps much more broader to the point of actually life healing and feeling more connected with my life environment, people, work, but also knowing the cost of connection as well. You know, that if I feel, I feel, if I do the work I do, I feel and how do I leave that there?

in a professional capacity, but how do I be present to the chaos of a family, say for instance, when I come back from a busy day at work? So that's connection. So in a way, at that point, I want to somebody comes in, I've had a busy day and now you want me to do this and you know, one goes into that reaction. So connection then just has so many aspects to it.

Lee (21:51)
so it's trying to stay connected, but in a way that doesn't feel perhaps overwhelming if we've got multiple stressors, we've got stress at work, family life is chaotic, there's a whole lot of emotional turmoil going on and we're trying to somehow stay connected. Also connected to ourselves, perhaps, maybe it's, we've got a relationship with maybe helpful in some levels as we've talked about.

But also it feels like we also need to have that relationship with ourselves that will enable us to have the stability to be able to navigate some of those intense moments when actually life does feel completely maybe a bit out of control when things are going wrong, And so creating that a sense of self, a sense of inner support feels like that might help to stabilize some of those moments.

Navneet Singh (22:41)
I think touched upon another important point. It's the internal locus of evaluation rather than just relying on the external, not to say that external doesn't matter. You know, the feedback, you know, what does my environment feed me? what's my place in this whole sphere? You know, my own world. 

So, yeah, inner locus of evaluation, and then, getting to the point where robust enough internally to be able to withstand, also sort of getting the right kind of feedbacks, the nourishment, the social nourishment, the emotional nourishment, the physical nourishment to allow for that inner environment to thrive and grow. And if that is the fabric that is weakened through trauma or other things, then it requires much more specialist and much more considered work as well.

Lee (23:26)
Yeah, and so I think something's important to say here is that there are often times aren't there that people really would benefit from external support in navigating this. It's not something that people can think I should be able to do this by myself. I really do think that when it's become a significant problem, then reaching out, seeking support is really fundamental.

Lee (23:48)
This is the choice pause. A short two to three minute tool you'll hear in every episode. Each time with something different to help you pause, notice and choose your next step.

Today's pause is creating space around urges.

Take a slow breath in and a longer breath out. Let your shoulders release a little. Soften the muscles in your face and jaw.

At times we all notice moments when the body or mind pulls us towards an action. It might show up as a tightening, a sense of restlessness, or a feeling of discomfort. There may be an urge to reach for something that soothes us quickly, even if this action doesn't quite line up with how we really wish to respond.

Instead of acting on that urge or pushing it away, see if you can give it a little room as though you're loosening the edges around it.

Take another slow breath and let your exhale be even longer this time.

Imagine the breath creating space inside your body. Enough for that feeling to rise and fall in its own time.

You might quietly say to yourself, I can feel this. don't have to act on it right now.

This is a tough moment.

It will pass with time. I want the best for myself.

Notice how the urge can shift even slightly when it's met with awareness and kindness rather than resistance or judgment.

Now ask yourself, what small choice help me stay steady in this moment?

perhaps resting a hand on your chest, taking a sip of water, reaching out to someone who supports you or just pausing before you continue today. 

Take one final slow breath and carry this sense of space and acceptance with you as you move through the day.

Navneet Singh (25:58)
This is not something that can be sorted out just through knowledge. It's like saying, well, I know how to make a six pack.

I can tell somebody else how to do it. Am I getting up and going to the gym and facing the discomfort of doing so? So the act of engaging in the knowledge, the actualization of the knowledge or the embodiment of the knowledge is the work. Often people don't lack knowledge. They can be in denial, which is another story altogether, but

a lot of people are aware. we hear it every day. hear the stories. We'll have people in our will have had problems. We would have of people who've started and stopped and people who've started, stopped and started and destroyed their life. We all have those stories in our the idea is what do I do with my story? But 100 % just I can't do it. I I know my recovery.

If it was up to me, I wouldn't be sitting here for my best intention, intention is like an ignition. You get it started, but there's a lot much more required. You need a good engine. I'm talking about combustion, not electric. You need fuel, you need all the other sort of stuff. need all the things working for you. People think just motivation is enough. Motivation is just the ignition that gets you started.

Navneet Singh (27:09)
Beyond that, there's so many other things. And that's where groups come into play, self-help or otherwise, societies, communities, one significant person, because internal processing isn't enough.

Lee (27:22)
for people perhaps who are just starting to wonder, should I be concerned about my relationship with alcohol? I think we often do have a bit of an inkling. So if people are having an inkling and they're questioning, sometimes that's a sign in its own right, I think, if we're questioning that, that suggests to me

Lee (27:39)
that we kind of, I think inside we often are aware more, even if we're in a little bit of denial or there's part of us who doesn't really want to address it straight away. But the very first step is that recognition, isn't it? So if we're going to think about changing the first step is to notice there's something that we perhaps would like to change, even if we're not yet ready to start the change or we don't know how to do it, we're not yet skilled, we haven't developed that six pack yet, we haven't been to the gym.

But we do need to find out where the gym is and start thinking about, quite like to go to the gym. That might be the first step. thinking about would be some pointers that you think people could start to just become aware of that might would be helpful to start addressing this?

Navneet Singh (28:10)
Absolutely.

one would start thinking on those lines because they know somewhere deep down something's not sitting well. So we all know if it doesn't. But if we were to sort of ask ourselves more direct questions, what is it that sort of says, well, there is no harm in asking direct questions, looking at patterns. Am I drinking every day? Do I drink because I want to not feel something? Am I rewarding myself with a drink?

There's a whole series of questions one can ask themselves. Do I find it difficult to stop after a certain amount of drinks? Do I tell myself I'll drink a certain amount and then I end up drinking more? with whatever reasons? DO I find myself wanting to stop my work day with a drink? So, asking these direct questions, all sorts, just literally each person will have their own line of questioning.

Just inquire gently. what's happening here. I think I might be drinking too much physical symptoms sometimes. Each person will have a different thing and I notice it. I'm waking up at night. I don't have a restful sleep.

So as we start to inquire those, lines of individual inquiry, we'll get some answers that say, I do need to rethink my at that point, what do I do? That's the big question. Who do I go to?

Lee (29:28)
Yes, so compassionate, gentle curiosity is the key start asking ourselves and maybe as we're reaching for drink, just pausing just for a moment and think what's going on for me right now and you can just have a little bit of inquiry. We don't have to change at that point, I think understanding is very powerful and can help start to get a sense of what

actually is the pattern for me, what's important? And also looking back at patterns, perhaps other people in our lives, been our experience, perhaps in childhood, how do other people relate to alcohol around us? What's the culture that we're in? Do other people drink regularly? All those kind of questions that we can just look at how woven it has become. Is it part of, you know, if people, I've had people where their entire social bound around alcohol.

and they just don't know people who don't drink very heavily. And so that would require much more than just stopping alcohol. It would require perhaps stepping away from an entire group of friends, starting and finding something completely different. So that's obviously a massive change. So we need to just notice all of these patterns first. And as we've already said, sometimes if these patterns are quite significant, if they might be linked to perhaps...

other issues like trauma or like mental health challenges. If we're depressed or there's anxiety, then we may need to seek support with that separately. And then let's come to, if somebody is with you, Nav, how do we begin to start that unpicking of the relationship?

We've already discussed you can't just change because you want to. Motivation, as you say, is pressing that start button on the car, but it's not the whole engine churning and moving the car along. And yet there is something about a conversation that helps that engine to to move a little bit. It's almost like getting the car on a slight downhill so that it starts a little bit of a rolling forwards, if you like. does that look like, do you think?

Navneet Singh (31:25)
So think, as you said, when someone's come to you and they're having that discussion and they're thinking on those lines, means they're already sort of aware the process has started there. The change might not be apparent there but in a way something has changed because they're questioning what is normal at that point in time. They're going, well, this is happening too much or I don't feel good or I find myself not being able to say no or getting myself into trouble or not remembering what's...

something was to have started for them to, the point is again, you know, going back to what we touched upon, nobody wants to see it as a problem. it's very important we don't try to sell someone,

This is it. You've reached a place where everything is horrible. You're messed up. There's a lot of times if somebody quite there and they're considering and we throw the word abstinence to them, will scare people away because what we're saying is not abstain from alcohol. We're saying abstain from socializing. We're saying abstain from whatever it offers you from from feeling relaxed, relieved. That's how a person receives it. They're not HEARING alcohol. They're HEARING

all that it gives them. So I think the important part is to start to tease stuff out. What does it do for you? socializing, like, well, you what am I going to do? have no friends if I don't sort of go, you start to look at the person's friendship groups or if it's a person for whom it matters the most and that's their family, the socializing, because perhaps their family dynamics are a certain way that, or they have no family.

It's very, you you're asking them to give their whole life in a way up to, not drink. So I think the idea is to gently sort of encourage people into becoming more attuned, understanding their own strength, learning to redefine what socializing looks like. I mean, for an example, I'll give you what I had to through these group of friends I used to we used to

party together and I noticed every time I met them, I would start feeling somehow resentful of the life I had and my life's really good. I'm really grateful,

So I would notice I'm starting to sort of get irritated and I see they're having fun and the jealousy crept in, right? I put myself in the scale where their life is better than mine. And when I'm less than,

I'm creating a perfect environment to go, well, this sucks or this doesn't work for me or, I hate my life or I can't have fun. Disatisfaction creeps in. So for me, I had to redefine my socializing with them. I would meet them at places where I would not be putting myself into temptation or feeling those feelings.

I decided, I'm going to meet them before five o'clock, where we'd meet for lunch and they'd be like, you're hen-pecked. You know, they mock mates and friends can do. And I was like, yes, that's right. I am. Thank you so much. I'm going to have my coffee. I'll eat the salad with you. I'll eat really good food with you. I'll share all that with you. And then five o'clock, I've got to report back home and they mocked and they laughed. If I hadn't understood my feelings,

through reflection or inquiry, then I wouldn't have recognized the fact that I'm actually conning myself into or convincing myself that my really good life is actually lacking because I see what they have at that moment. So this is just subtle example of not to do with alcohol at all, but to do with temptation generally.

So I think redefining what social life looks like, redefining fun, this is a very important concept. there's a paper written by think Dr Rob Weiss, 
about the role of grief and loss in addiction recovery, but actually it's really important. it's much more complex But let's say for example, bargaining is one of the stages of OF loss.

That's something that people will bring in. You know, there's perhaps sadness or anger or depression. There's denial. There's so many. And if you look at the grief of losing alcohol as a relational partner, it's bound to be there. So I think when we're looking at the social fabric, we've got to also start to work with, if you're not going to do this.

What might you try? What might that look like? Because I mean, I go to the pub and I I tell them, why didn't you go to the bell ringers the village church and go ring bells? And they'd be like, what are you on about? You know, They retaliate to not that I'm saying bell ringing is wrong, you know, I've tried it myself. the point that is

you know, if it's a younger person, it'll have to be closer to what what they get from the social fabric of drinking to in a state where they're getting the connection, but the alcohol.

Lee (35:46)
I'm hearing two really big themes. One of them is around joy redefining what that means, perhaps letting go of, comparisons are and they're problematic for so many different aspects of wellbeing. my hair's not right, my makeup's not right, my body shape's not right. There's so many reasons that we can compare.

feel lacking, because there's always somebody, right, who looks different or who's got more money or who's got a better job or who's published more papers, like always there's going to be somebody. And so it's really easy in the modern world, this whole comparison issue, and I can really see how that would feed into alcohol as a coping strategy and how we need to maybe reframe our idea how we want to live.

What brings us that sense of positivity? whether it's bell ringing or something completely different, we just need to find it kind of embrace it and connect. You mentioned disconnection. We need to reconnect with things that bring us that sense of positivity and being in the moment that perhaps we lack when we're so busy worrying about, do I live up to this, that and the other?

And then the other side that I was hearing there that I think is also really powerful is the sense of grief and acknowledging that if alcohol is a relationship, then when step away from that, then there's a loss, there's a sense of loss that we may need to mourn and we need to move through some of the different stages of grief and we may hopefully end up at a place of acceptance. But through that, there may be moments where...

we're in denial, there may be moments that we feel angry, there may be moments that we have all kinds of different emotions. And I know grief is actually way more complex just a few stages, but there's huge numbers of emotions and they can hit us. I think the thing about grief is be very overwhelming, can get a wave just out of the blue may have some parallels. So I think just recognizing that that's okay, that we need to learn how to navigate loss.

as a part of shifting our relationship with alcohol. feels like that would, it doesn't make it easier, but I think is important to be able to at least recognise that that is part of the journey.

Navneet Singh (37:54)
Absolutely, and I think it ties in really well into what you were speaking about a little while back about the support we need in our lives to do this. Just we can't do it. You know, if I'm the captain, I'm the infantry, I'm the cavalry, I'm the captain, I'm the major, I'm the whole hierarchy. Only one of me needs to fall for my whole defense line to fall. I need other people in my camp. I need people talk to. I need people to go, you know, I'm not drinking, but I'm really feeling horrible. I really feel know, not just because I have a problem.

But actually because I say, actually I like to speak to someone, you know, the connections we talk about. So we need, and that facilitating environment is where the greatest healing happens. that's what we try to offer to a child, a baby, whether that's the whole village raising a child or a family that, imagine us learning a new way of life in a way, it doesn't matter what age we are. We need that facilitating environment

being projected into our own sort of sense of worth and healing and, you know, ability to tolerate our feelings to say, well, actually I'm feeling sad, but I won't be destroyed by it. I don't need a drink for that.

Lee (38:54)
So we've got that co-regulation where we to manage our distress through connection with others and we've also got that support. Perhaps we've got people who've got our back who will say come on let's choose something healthy today and then it might just be we just have fun with so they can just bring a bit of joy and there might be someone that we don't talk about our deeper feelings but we just go out and

have a great time, but not in a way that likely to trigger an urge for alcohol, but is something completely different that actually helps us manage that urge. So it feels like there's lots of different ways that relationships, and then there's this sort of therapeutic relationship, maybe with a therapist like yourself, with a peer group. So there's lots of support organizations where people describe fantastic support from people around them to feel held.

there's lots of layers aren't there about where connection can really help hold us it feels like there's a real network at play here.

Navneet Singh (39:52)
Absolutely. know, I think one word for it is creating a community. And it sounds very easy. All this sounds really easy, but it's actually really challenging, which is why people sort of go to the easier option, which is, let me just open a bottle and, or the excuse, I'm just going to pour it in the cooking and, the cooking, you know, doesn't get half of what it needs to and our belly ends up with most of it.

Lee (40:12)
so just to end we always end with a choice space takeaway so if someone is curious about making just one or two small changes in their daily life to start to maybe explore rather than necessarily change but we're starting to recognise our relationship with alcohol

or two small steps that they might make a start are not too overwhelming?

Navneet Singh (40:35)
continue inquiring, don't worry about getting your conclusion yet, but continue the questioning, I think. And I would say ask more specific questions rather than ask, why am I drinking? Ask, what do I get from drinking? So start a question with what happen to me or what would I feel if I don't have a drink? You know, so the what questions are very specific. why can be

as vast as the universe. So that's one thing I'd say, And the next would be speak to people, ask someone who knows, go be curious and attend the meeting or, speak to someone who you know might have had a problem. If you can muster courage to ask the question and tap into some basic vulnerability of saying, well, actually, let me speak to

someone who might know something about this or then do so. But we live in the world through social media and everything else. There are a lot of apps available. There's Reframe, there's Rating the Drink, there's so many of them, there's tons of them, Some cost as less as five pounds, a lot of them are free.

Let them guide you into what's going on. And to rethink your drink.

Lee (41:43)
amazing. And I think I would just add just find one or two things in your daily life that do bring you a sense of joy. that's what your need is, if your need is to relax, then find something that does help you to relax. focus on what non-alcohol related activities can bring

something that I really need that I would value in my life. So I think it's just about trying to increase our range of options about how we manage. And then I would also reinforce what we were talking about connections. So just build those connections. And again, just try and strengthen the connections with people who are supportive around our alcohol. So we're looking for those relationships where people are going to help stabilize us and to help us to make those healthier choices without necessarily guilting us into

actually just make it a little bit make a choice that actually serves us rather than being pulled down the route of choices that perhaps are less healthy.

Navneet Singh (42:38)
I couldn't agree more.

Lee (42:39)
Thanks for listening to the Choice Space podcast. I hope this conversation has offered a little more room to pause, breathe and find your own way forward. We've linked to how you can connect with Navneet in the show notes. If today's episode has been helpful,

please download, follow and share someone who might value that space as well. love to have you with me for the next episode. Until then, take care and keep making space for what matters most. 

This episode was edited by Elle Dixon.